Some issue loading Hornady V-Max in .223 Rem ?

[brccd]

I always understood that chamfering/deburring case mouths are necessary steps in reloading, especially gas guns.

It seems flat bottoms really need a good chamfer! Boat tails, seems to just go on with no issue.

 

[effendude]

yes, another lesson learned...I did check the cases prior in a gauge though, and they were good. It was after loading the bullet before doing a chamfer, found problems...chamfer well, line bullet up, then was a clean load and fit in the gauge! Seems like more work to load these flat bullets!

Seriously, have you simply tried resizing the processed brass to see if that resolves the issue?

 

[DShortt]

Seriously, have you simply tried resizing the processed brass to see if that resolves the issue?

Bingo! Someone else screwed the pooch, sent it down the road, and here we are.

 

[effendude]

Bingo! Someone else screwed the pooch, sent it down the road, and here we are.

2 pages of helpful comments, but we are starting off with an unknown variable. 100,000 rounds of flat based V-max bullets loaded into mostly range pick-up brass tumbled and ran through a Dillon 1050 as fast as possible, and never had an issue. Full length size the processed brass......

 

[C.E.Smith043]

I use a VLD chamfer and get better results on flat base bullets

 

[brccd]

Seriously, have you simply tried resizing the processed brass to see if that resolves the issue?

No not yet. I will head back to the bench and set up for that, and give it a try to. But, just ordered a batch of V Max, boat tail version...to compare.

 

[Homerange]

yes, another lesson learned...I did check the cases prior in a gauge though, and they were good. It was after loading the bullet before doing a chamfer, found problems...chamfer well, line bullet up, then was a clean load and fit in the gauge! Seems like more work to load these flat bullets!

Do you have a case spinner for trimming brass to length when it grows ?
Chamfering inside and out is an additional 3 sec process while you have the case spinning.

Always done it and most all here would've too.

 

[brccd]

Do you have a case spinner for trimming brass to length when it grows ?
Chamfering inside and out is an additional 3 sec process while you have the case spinning.

Always done it and most all here would've too.

Yes, I have that, and was using that. Once I did what seemed a bit extra chamferring, was when the flat bottom bullets seemed to seat correctly without messing up the neck. The shell cases prior to that, fit perfectly in gauges. When the bullet went "wrong", in the gauge, it looked like it was hitting at neck ...I use the sheridan gauge, which has a side cut slot and you can see where things hang up...I was also using the LEE micrometer in the seater, which may not have handled the VLD lines of the VMAX...took that out and put the original stem back...a combo of things.. waiting for the hornady seater, which is supposed to handle the vmax better. The standard FMJBT goes in fine...uggh

 

[K22]

yes, another lesson learned...I did check the cases prior in a gauge though, and they were good. It was after loading the bullet before doing a chamfer, found problems...chamfer well, line bullet up, then was a clean load and fit in the gauge! Seems like more work to load these flat bullets!

I never found it more difficult to load flat base bullets. If you chamfer the necks, size the cases with the proper equipment and take care aligning the bullet with the case mouth easing the bullet into the neck then rotating the case while completing the seating operation you should have no problem. I have loaded literally thousands of flat base bullets in 223 Rem, 243 Win, 308 Win to name a few. Never had a difficulty. If the Sierra Pro Hunter (flat base) bullets are outstanding hunting bullets

Granted, boat tails enter easier, but this should not be a sole reason to go to boat tails. Flat base bullets often offer an advantage in accuracy at the distances you are shooting assuming precision is one of your goals.

 

[DShortt]

No not yet. I will head back to the bench and set up for that, and give it a try to. But, just ordered a batch of V Max, boat tail version...to compare.

So you opted to change the bullet instead of checking the brass of unknown origin.

Nice.

FMJVT seats fine.

You have a neck sizing issue. The boat tails are acting like an expander. Won't shoot for crap, either but that's another can o' worms.

 

[brccd]

So you opted to change the bullet instead of checking the brass of unknown origin.

Nice.

FMJVT seats fine.

You have a neck sizing issue. The boat tails are acting like an expander. Won't shoot for crap, either but that's another can o' worms.

I simply wanted to compare the two versions and see if one works better for me.

 

[dellet]

There is a learning curve to seating flat base bullets. Both in the seating process and the brass prepping. The smaller the bullet, the less open the press for access and the size and mobility of the fingers can make it a challenge. If all you have ever seated is boat tail bullets, you've probably never developed a good seating technique, just set the bullet on the case mouth and pull the lever, works on a boat tail. Not so well on a flatbase as you found.

Brass that was prepped 8 years ago, might as well be treated as just picked up off the range, it’s really not even clean unless stored in a vacuum. The brass has oxidized, the neck has likely closed some(springback) and unless stored in individual shell holders like a cartridge box, has been banging around on the case mouths.

Same goes for new brass bulk shipped. You can get by seating a tapered boat tail, but a flat base will be frustrating. You need a nice round, square neck with no burr left over from trimming. If not full length sized, a mandrel to straighten and open the case mouth is enough.

What you have done by using more chamfer is more or less exchanging the taper found on a boat tail, and a square neck on the case neck and reversing that. The taper is now on the case neck.

The problem with an aggressive chamfer is that repeatedly doing that leads to very thin case mouths that split. So belling the case mouth slightly is better in the long run. Generally just .001” over bullet diameter is enough and due to spring back won’t require a crimp to remove the bell.

The more uniform the case length, the easier those steps will be and the less problems you will have seating. It’s not that flat base bullets are much harder to work with, but they will certainly show if you're a little sloppy in your brass prep.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

IF the M die is made correctly, all it will do is slightly bell the case mouth so that the bullet will enter straight. If the M die is actually expanding the neck and neck tension is lost, then the first part of the M die stem is incorrectly made. If the neck tension was too high, either because the sizing die used is incorrectly made or the brass has an unusually thick neck wall, then it may open the entire neck diameter some, but again. If the M die stem is made correctly it should still leave adequate neck tension.
This is typically only a problem on flat base bullets. Boat tail bullets will enter the case mouth and act like their own expander.

Edit to add - if you got this brass already sized and primed, it's possible that whomever prepped the brass was doing a neck tension experiment of some sort and used a sizing die that normally takes an expander button but had that removed also.

This is my experience with the Lyman M die also. I use it a lot and like it for the 223 rounds along with the Lee factory crimp die. You don’t have to chamfer at all this way.

 

[brccd]

There is a learning curve to seating flat base bullets. Both in the seating process and the brass prepping. The smaller the bullet, the less open the press for access and the size and mobility of the fingers can make it a challenge. If all you have ever seated is boat tail bullets, you've probably never developed a good seating technique, just set the bullet on the case mouth and pull the lever, works on a boat tail. Not so well on a flatbase as you found.

Brass that was prepped 8 years ago, might as well be treated as just picked up off the range, it’s really not even clean unless stored in a vacuum. The brass has oxidized, the neck has likely closed some(springback) and unless stored in individual shell holders like a cartridge box, has been banging around on the case mouths.

Same goes for new brass bulk shipped. You can get by seating a tapered boat tail, but a flat base will be frustrating. You need a nice round, square neck with no burr left over from trimming. If not full length sized, a mandrel to straighten and open the case mouth is enough.

What you have done by using more chamfer is more or less exchanging the taper found on a boat tail, and a square neck on the case neck and reversing that. The taper is now on the case neck.

The problem with an aggressive chamfer is that repeatedly doing that leads to very thin case mouths that split. So belling the case mouth slightly is better in the long run. Generally just .001” over bullet diameter is enough and due to spring back won’t require a crimp to remove the bell.

The more uniform the case length, the easier those steps will be and the less problems you will have seating. It’s not that flat base bullets are much harder to work with, but they will certainly show if you're a little sloppy in your brass prep.

thx for the inputs...yes, have only done boat tails until now. A few people have said never had problems with them...I'm pretty coordinated, and was saying to myself, what the heck is going on?...well as you say, and I discovered, there is technique. I will try a few of the suggestions. The question I raised though...is the flat bottom bullet really worth it?? I mean most long range bullets, ie 6.5 creedmoores are boat tails, being used out to 1000 yds...so why go to flat bottom with all the troubles? I have a bunch of the vmax flats that I made up, and am getting the vmax boat tails...and will give a try between the two at the range this week.

 

[DShortt]

thx for the inputs...yes, have only done boat tails until now. A few people have said never had problems with them...I'm pretty coordinated, and was saying to myself, what the heck is going on?...well as you say, and I discovered, there is technique. I will try a few of the suggestions. The question I raised though...is the flat bottom bullet really worth it?? I mean most long range bullets, ie 6.5 creedmoores are boat tails, being used out to 1000 yds...so why go to flat bottom with all the troubles? I have a bunch of the vmax flats that I made up, and am getting the vmax boat tails...and will give a try between the two at the range this week.

I would submit that it depends on a couple of things. First, the range you're shooting at. I have my doubts that you'll not see any advantage to boat tail bullets under 300 yards. Some might disagree with that. No 2 shooter's experience will be identical simply because of all the variables involved. Testing at the distance you plan to shoot is the only way to know.
Second, boat tail bullets are longer overall and have a shorter bearing surface. There isn't as much of the bullet in contact with the barrel. So depending on the rate of twist, conditions in your bore and velocity, the boat tail bullets may not shoot as well for you. And again, the only way to determine what works best for.your particular combination is to test it for yourself and see what the targets tell you.

 

[dellet]

thx for the inputs...yes, have only done boat tails until now. A few people have said never had problems with them...I'm pretty coordinated, and was saying to myself, what the heck is going on?...well as you say, and I discovered, there is technique. I will try a few of the suggestions. The question I raised though...is the flat bottom bullet really worth it?? I mean most long range bullets, ie 6.5 creedmoores are boat tails, being used out to 1000 yds...so why go to flat bottom with all the troubles? I have a bunch of the vmax flats that I made up, and am getting the vmax boat tails...and will give a try between the two at the range this week.

The real question should be. Is the boat tail worth it?

The Flat base should be more accurate, but as @DShortt said, distance matters. At some distance the boat tail has less drop when comparing two bullets of the same weight. Use a ballistic calculator for the bullets you have, it will look something like this.
300 yards .01” difference
500 yards 1” difference
750 yards 10” difference
1000 yards 30” difference

Everything is different, but the guys who shoot the really small groups 300 yards and under all seem to use a flat base bullet. But they can shoot good enough to prove it. I’m not sure I can.

 

[Doom]

@DShortt is correct. The advantage of the boat tail begins to come into play at/near the transonic velocity region and lower. At supersonic velocities its effect is minor. At supersonic velocities the drag is predominately wave drag due to the shock waves. The gain in precision due to the flat base allowing less disturbance of the bullet on muzzle exit is why it's preferred for short range BR.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

You should run the new brass through neck expansion mandrel to open them up a bit for smooth consistent seating.

I agree. Graphite lube, mandrel, chamfer all new brass. The lube will help seating the first time when there is no carbon in the neck.

 

[Ackman]

I've loaded lots of 223 using FMJ Boat tail bullets and wanted to try hornady V-Max tipped 55gr which is flat bottom and am having an issue...

I checked the shell casing in gauges prior and they were fine...

Upon loading the bullet, after rechecking the load in the gauge, the cartridge does not fit completely...on a number of loads...50% get messed up. Luckily I spotted this after a handful of loads.

It looks like the neck on the casing is minutely distorted and kind of like the bullet did not go straight in.

I even tried chamferring the neck a bit extra, and getting similar results...did not expect this.

I am using a Lee seater (Lee press), and just ordered a Hornady seater, which has a better guide for the bullet. Maybe that'll work!

So, is there a trick about loading flat base bullets that I am missing? Special die conifguration? What are dies you have used for these cases with success?

Thanks.

I haven't read all the replies and maybe someone's already said it. But I'll say it anyway......just get a REDDING Competition Seating Die and be done with it.

 

[brccd]

thx for the inputs...yes, have only done boat tails until now. A few people have said never had problems with them...I'm pretty coordinated, and was saying to myself, what the heck is going on?...well as you say, and I discovered, there is technique. I will try a few of the suggestions. The question I raised though...is the flat bottom bullet really worth it?? I mean most long range bullets, ie 6.5 creedmoores are boat tails, being used out to 1000 yds...so why go to flat bottom with all the troubles? I have a bunch of the vmax flats that I made up, and am getting the vmax boat tails...and will give a try between the two at the range this week.

I haven't read all the replies and maybe someone's already said it. But I'll say it anyway......just get a REDDING Competition Seating Die and be done with it.

Thx, however, just received the Hornady Seater I was waiting for, and tried it immediately for several loads...and it works great! This was making me crazy. So I think I got it solved. The hornady vmax, with the hornady seater, with a little chamfer, and some redding graphite lube for the neck, and it works well. Will do another 40 rounds of this, and get it down better. A little extra effort needed here for these flat bottoms!
I have readding dies for 6.5 CM and for 308 ( with vld seating stems) ....they are good.