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Some dumb questions.............

I'm thinking of getting a 6BR rifle for shooting paper targets mainly at 100 yards and 200-600 yards once in awhile. I been shooting AR-15s and don't have a bolt action rifle other than a couple of .22LRs so I'm pretty ignorant about bolt guns. Would an "average" 6BR have the potential to shoot better groups at 100 yards that a .223 rifle with a good aftermarket barrel?

I know Savage has factory 6BR rifles but would it make more sense to put one together with parts from a place like Northland Shooters Supply? They offer Savage and Remington actions. Is one better than the other? It's nice that the Remington action can use the TriggerTech Diamond trigger which I like a lot. Would I be able to get everything I need to put a complete rifle together from NSS?

Thanks!

NSS for a Shilen or Criterion barrel, a new action, barrel nut and recoil lug, tools to roll your own, and you'll have fallen head first down the barrel-nut rabbit hole.

Seriously, if you really want to have some fun with this sport, this is the way to go if you are at all mechanically inclined. You'll learn nothing by buying someone else's used competition rifle, IMOP. Not a bad thing, but personally I place a lot of capital on learning through hands on experience. YMMV.

I like Savage designs because they're easy to assemble with aftermarket parts and easy to tuneup. They're not the best for certain types of competition shooting, but for most others, they're more than sufficient, and most importantly for me, they're inexpensive.

If your budget for a new shooter is in the neighborhood of $8000, a custom action, stock, top of the line scope and talented gunsmith is your best route. But you can get about 90% there for under $2000 by DIY. It won't compete with the high priced gun, but the high priced gun won't compete on the personal satisfaction level like a DIY.
 
Wow, I cannot help but sigh every time I read the how great Savage is so buy them and bolt stuff on to it later posts. Savage rifles nearly always shoot well out of the box, they are less money than all but a few common brands. The barrel nut is a pioneer effort in simplicity. That is where I get off the Savage bus.

For the record, I currently have 5, Savage rifles in the house. One of them almost rivals a full-custom Rem 700 clone (let's just say it was not cheap), but that particular Savage build COST MORE MONEY than that full custom build, and in the case of the trigger, nothing on the market for Savage compares. I am also a Savage fan, but only for the reason that is in the last sentence in this post.

The following is what I frequently see Savage fans leave out when they talk about customizing them:
  • Aftermarket parts are not as plentiful as other staple brands, although there are more things available over the last couple of years. The aftermarket parts are every bit as much money as say for a Remington 700 / 700 clone, but the resale value of the Savage upgrades is nothing close to the Rem counterparts.
  • The barrel nut still requires the purchase of tools that only fit the Savage, and depending on the age or if the nut has been replaced, you may end up with the wrong barrel nut. The company that sells you a barrel will likely (and should, by the way) suggest an stronger nut and replacement (stronger) recoil lug. Despite its simple design, you still need to remove the optics and still need go/no-go gauges. Since you can also obtain a Remage adapter for a Rem 700 and have that work done so you can run Savage pre-fit, the barrel nut being the reason to go Savage over a Rem 700 does not hold water. Further, there is no denying that pre-fits are quick and easy, some (e.g., Shilen Select Match) are really good barrels, but are you able to get the barrel you want (chamber, contour, length, threaded, coated)? If not, you are probably talking with a smith anyway so you may as well just get a blank and really get what you want.
  • The Savage bolt solution is complex. By complex I am not saying you cannot look at it and figure it out, but if you want to be able to test things like finding CBTO by using a stripped bolt to insert a dummy round and check fit, you cannot with the Savage as the washer much be installed to keep pressure on the bolt head. It also cannot really run with a dry inner bolt (pin assembly, cocking sleeve, bolt head post, and so on) but because it has an open design (multiple places that are easily exposed to getting dirt inside the bolt or prevent smooth function), it will likely not run without some form of lubrication -- Ronson only goes so far. Nothing worse than being out shooting just to end up with the bolt out of the action as you glare at it in disbelief that something that looks so simple can stop running for reasons that make you suddenly realize they over engineered the darn thing.
  • I am blown away by all the 'buy this to make your Savage bolt cycle/eject' stuff. It's like a flashing sign saying hey, your going to have problems and neither you or a smith are going to be successful fixing it so you may as well try this wiz-bang parts kit.
Just because a Savage shoots well out of the box does not warrant dumping a bunch of money to make it better - its like putting some tricked out wheels, tires, and suspension on your grandmother's Buick Lesabre that she gave you. The car won't run any better, it may handle a little better, it will likely look better in some weird way but everyone that knows its a grandma car questions why you spruced it up, and as soon as you have the money to buy something that you can tune your going to do that anyway so now you get to learn that those Buick lug pattern wheels don't fit the stuff that everyone else that wants those wheels are driving, the tires are half-used so nobody is buying. And so on.

Buy a stock for a Savage if it came with a synthetic just like you would with any other rifle that came with a synthetic stock, but don't buy anything aftermarket that is Savage specific (except for maybe a scope base) unless you like repeating the mistakes of others because that is the way you learn, or you just have money to burn. Heck, you can buy a new, stock Rem 700 action for around $350 without having to do a bunch of looking around. You will lose that much in resale just by putting a decent chassis on a Savage.

So now that I have hijacked this thread, offended many, and you have caught your breath from reading that great run-on sentence, back to the stuff that really is good about Savage if you are just looking to buy something and go shoot it: They allow you to get something that is accurate out of the box for not much money.
 
I check CBTO with my Savage using the bolt drop method.

Remove ejector and extractor. I do this in a gallon plastic bag to retain parts if the fly off
Disassemble the bolt. Insert Bolt head in bolt body without spring washer and front baffle.
Insert bolt head retaining pin and drop in firing pin without the cocking piece and pin.
Stuff some cleaning patches in the back of the bolt to keep the firing pin forward ( so the retaining pin stays in place.)
Install bolt handle without rear baffle.

Insert bolt and have at it.

Eric
 
I check CBTO with my Savage using the bolt drop method.

Remove ejector and extractor. I do this in a gallon plastic bag to retain parts if the fly off
Disassemble the bolt. Insert Bolt head in bolt body without spring washer and front baffle.
Insert bolt head retaining pin and drop in firing pin without the cocking piece and pin.
Stuff some cleaning patches in the back of the bolt to keep the firing pin forward ( so the retaining pin stays in place.)
Install bolt handle without rear baffle.

Insert bolt and have at it.

Eric

I don't see that you can get a good CBTO on a Savage that is still using the floating head with a stripped bolt or even with something like the Hornady OAL kit. Just like any chamber job, the bolt face needs to be in a fixed spot to determine of the case will be too long or too short. This is one of the reasons for removing the ejector. By removing the washer you are changing the supported length of brass from base to shoulder datum. At the very least, you are making it so the cartridge can be longer than actual once the washer is replaced. However, what I suspect is actually happening is you are getting a measurement that is much longer than supported once the washer is replaced, and either jamming the lands or close to it once the washer is replaced and the base of the case is moved forward. To measure CBTO using the bolt method everything needs to have the ability to be resistance free at a fixed length. This is not possible with a 2 piece bolt face, although I suppose you could replace the washer with a shim that is the exact thickness of the compressed washer, but then you are back to acknowledging that Savage bolts are complex and have not guarantee that the pressure of the washer is not going to drive the bullet into the lands when chambered - my money is that it would.

To do some form of CBTO with a Savage, I think you need the shoulder datum to the bullet OGIVE, and need to be certain the floating face is going to drive the case shoulder to the chamber every time. I think the closest way to do it is with something like the Hornady OAL kit but with using a fireformed case for that chamber that has had the shoulder bumped to the exact amount that your future rounds would be bumped to. Personally, I don't think it is worth trying to figure it out. The Savage bolt does a decent job at taking the brass differences out of the equation. It was not really designed for chasing the lands so why bother.
 
This is the way I look at it. The bolthead is making full contact with the action at firing. After removing the bolt parts as described the bolt handle drops with no resistance. I do not us the ejector. I remove fired cases by hand. My brass is sized .0015". When the test case with bullet starts to touch the lands bolt handle resistance can be felt. I use this as my CBTO measurement. I believe more accurate than the Hornady method, which I also have. I suggest Savage shooters try both methods and reply to this post with their findings. Would be interesting read

Eric
 
To do some form of CBTO with a Savage, I think you need the shoulder datum to the bullet OGIVE, and need to be certain the floating face is going to drive the case shoulder to the chamber every time. I think the closest way to do it is with something like the Hornady OAL kit but with using a fireformed case for that chamber that has had the shoulder bumped to the exact amount that your future rounds would be bumped to. Personally, I don't think it is worth trying to figure it out. The Savage bolt does a decent job at taking the brass differences out of the equation. It was not really designed for chasing the lands so why bother.
I would take a piece of fully fire formed brass, just enough to be a light “clicker” on bolt lift due to its base to shoulder length, and have it tapped for the Hornady tool.

Then the Hornady tool should work consistently with that piece of brass.

I don’t know much about the Savage bolts but I fail to imagine a scenario where this method won’t work.

David
 
I would take a piece of fully fire formed brass, just enough to be a light “clicker” on bolt lift due to its base to shoulder length, and have it tapped for the Hornady tool.

Then the Hornady tool should work consistently with that piece of brass.

I don’t know much about the Savage bolts but I fail to imagine a scenario where this method won’t work.

David

Yeah, I think it would work if it actually clicked. Savage uses a wave washer behind the bolt head that gets flattened when you close the bolt, then it opens up a little when you take your hand off the knob unless you are crushing the case. The cam release is at the rear, and it has a ball bearing that rides the outside of the bolt. Between the bolt face moving laterally and the rear cam turning, it is really hard to figure out when the extractor is getting enough pressure to click -- the standard extractor is a small plate with a bearing under it, it is not pinned.

It is the whole loading of the head that I say CBTO is challenging. If you do the clean bolt looking for the point of no drag and removed the washer to do it, you have increased the total distance from the bolt face to the OGIVE. That distance needs to be made up somewhere when the washer is put back in. And since the loading compresses the washer and then releases it in a very uniform fashion (unlike the uneven pressure of an ejector), I think a 'to the lands' or close to that loaded round is going to get stuffed in the lands. Now we are talking Savage, and I have yet to see one that can be loaded to the lands without a very heavy bullet, or modified mag, or single feeding it, so for most this may not be a reality thing to begin with. Still, it is not something to take casually. I personally have stuffed what was a 0.015 jump of a 6.5 because of the bolt face preloading the bullet. I was able to catch the bolt stiffening just a bit more than normal when closing the bolt. Ejected the case only to have the bullet in the lands and powder everywhere else.
 
Yeah, I think it would work if it actually clicked. Savage uses a wave washer behind the bolt head that gets flattened when you close the bolt, then it opens up a little when you take your hand off the knob unless you are crushing the case. The cam release is at the rear, and it has a ball bearing that rides the outside of the bolt. Between the bolt face moving laterally and the rear cam turning, it is really hard to figure out when the extractor is getting enough pressure to click -- the standard extractor is a small plate with a bearing under it, it is not pinned.

It is the whole loading of the head that I say CBTO is challenging. If you do the clean bolt looking for the point of no drag and removed the washer to do it, you have increased the total distance from the bolt face to the OGIVE. That distance needs to be made up somewhere when the washer is put back in. And since the loading compresses the washer and then releases it in a very uniform fashion (unlike the uneven pressure of an ejector), I think a 'to the lands' or close to that loaded round is going to get stuffed in the lands. Now we are talking Savage, and I have yet to see one that can be loaded to the lands without a very heavy bullet, or modified mag, or single feeding it, so for most this may not be a reality thing to begin with. Still, it is not something to take casually. I personally have stuffed what was a 0.015 jump of a 6.5 because of the bolt face preloading the bullet. I was able to catch the bolt stiffening just a bit more than normal when closing the bolt. Ejected the case only to have the bullet in the lands and powder everywhere else.
That "powder everywhere" is a show stopper. Hate that!
 
I believe the the stripped bolt method of finding touch for a given bullet is definitely the most accurate method that I’ve used. I load for several Savages and I’ve never had satisfactory results using that method.

I use my own version of a modified case method to find touch on Savages. It’s not as accurate, but it is repeatable. It really doesn’t matter to me if my .010 jam is really .013 because I’m testing seating depths myself in my own gun and never using someone else’s numbers. Consistency and repeatability is what really matters.
 
I have taken the wave washer out of all my Savages...going naked..I see no use for it..but everybody is different..
 
If you are looking to assemble something of your own I would highly suggest Northland Shooters Supply. I have my second barrel on order and was beyond impressed with the first. If you think you want something other than a 26, 28, or 30" straight taper 1-8t 6br you better order now. I ordered one with custom specs on July 30 and it is scheduled to be completed the middle of next month. Totally worth the wait based on customer service alone.
 
I ordered a custom spec barrel from James. He quoted me 3-4 months. I had it in my hands under 10 weeks.
It's a shooter, shot it today out to 1000 yards.
 
Find what shoots best and go with it- who cares what it measures. On a savage you can use my polished bullet method to touch the lands then go from there.
 

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