Sling Class Structure

[Jeff Porter]

THIS.

I'd go a step further and say that any CMP-compliant Service Rifle should count as a Palma rifle.

Why?

 

[Acyr]

THIS.

I'd go a step further and say that any CMP-compliant Service Rifle should count as a Palma rifle.

NRA says it does.
3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle—
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b) Any service rifle with metallic sites chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.

 

[mtncwru]

Why?

It expands what matches your Service Rifle crew can shoot with existing gear, and grows your potential match attendance pool.

On the "fair to the other competitors" side: Service Rifle still has the same caliber restrictions as Palma, and much of the benefit a scope brings is countered by the rules around sling attachment (to both rifle and shooter), rifle adjustments, and barrel length.

NRA says it does.
3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle—
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b) Any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case. 3.4 Reduced Capacity Magazine––In slow fire, auto rifles using an

Right, my proposal would remove the "with metallic sights" clause and let them roll with their SR-compliant scopes.

 

[Bob3700]

It expands what matches your Service Rifle crew can shoot with existing gear, and grows your potential match attendance pool.

On the "fair to the other competitors" side: Service Rifle still has the same caliber restrictions as Palma, and much of the benefit a scope brings is countered by the rules around sling attachment (to both rifle and shooter), rifle adjustments, and barrel length.


Right, my proposal would remove the "with metallic sights" clause and let them roll with their SR-compliant scopes.

The scoped Palma/service rifle becomes the slippery slope that brings the question: If the service rifle can shoot with a scope, why can't my match rifle use one as well.
That is what got us in the irons vs scoped prone/sling shooting situation we see today. Prone matches in my neck of the woods (mid-West) have traditionally been one or two scope matches in the AM with irons in the afternoon. That format had to be followed to be the overall match winner. So the prone/scope specialist cries foul because the service rifle shooters are allowed a scope in all matches. The match directors caved to this position and now the majority shoot prone/sling/scope if they want an opportunity to win the match. The iron sight shooter is at a distinct disadvantage if the range visual conditions are poor (low light on target, light rain etc.).
Prone/sling/irons should be a separate category from Prone/sling/scope.

 

[mtncwru]

The scoped Palma/service rifle becomes the slippery slope that brings the question: If the service rifle can shoot with a scope, why can't my match rifle use one as well.

Yeah, I covered that. Yes you have a scope, but you also have a stubby barrel, 2 stock adjustments (sling tension and LOP), and no handstop. You're also disadvantaged by the allowed sling-to-jacket attachment.

 

[Acyr]

Here in the SW iron sight shooters (except Palma) are aging out fast. Eliminating the irons requirement keeps them shooting longer.

 

[Heavy barrel]

Right, my proposal would remove the "with metallic sights" clause and let them roll with their SR-compliant scopes.

I don't agree with letting service rifle with optics in with Palma. That's not Palma in my opinion.

If you have optics should be in Any or you can shoot AR tactical.

 

[Heavy barrel]

Many shooters have only one Any/Rifle and change from irons to scope to match the corse of fire. Also an Any rifle with irons is legal in an Any/Any match. Hence the term “Any”.

But what do these shooters do when the match mandates you have to shoot the Palma day to be part of the overall Agg? If they only have one Any rifle then they have to be the Optics only or stay home.

 

[clowdis]

In order to remain compliant with the rest of the world Palma needs to remain Palma. Why do you want to shoot your service rifle in Palma when the across the course matches are almost gone in our area because of lack of shooters. If you want to shoot Palma buy a Palma rifle, if you want to shoot service rifle buy a service rifle. The US takes an International butt kicking every 4 years now because our rifle competition classes are so bastardized! Nearly 800 shooters in the Bisley Championships last week vs. less than 50 at our NRA National long range matches.

 

[clowdis]

By the way, our NRA National long range championship was won by a Palma rifle shooter this year, no optical sight required.

 

[mtncwru]

In order to remain compliant with the rest of the world Palma needs to remain Palma. Why do you want to shoot your service rifle in Palma when the across the course matches are almost gone in our area because of lack of shooters. If you want to shoot Palma buy a Palma rifle, if you want to shoot service rifle buy a service rifle. The US takes an International butt kicking every 4 years now because our rifle competition classes are so bastardized! Nearly 800 shooters in the Bisley Championships last week vs. less than 50 at our NRA National long range matches.

So which do you want: more shooters on the line, or clinging to requiring a Palma rifle because "well that's how we've always done it"? 'cause right now those two goals are going to run counter to one another.

"Just buy another rifle" is *absolutely* a barrier to entry for many people, and you can alleviate that with this one neat trick!

 

[jelenko]

never crossfired

Never?

 

[Mike Samer]

Service rifle shooters should feel free to shoot the 1000 yard matches with their scoped service rifles in the service rifle division.

I shoot quite a bit at 1000 yards here in Arizona and can only recall 2 service rifle entries ...

 

[Jeff Porter]

Most Palma matches I attend have a SR class included, as well as any any.
You can play, you just can't with the overall Palma match. Don't bring your Nascar to F1 track and say its a race car...

That said, modern service rifles since 2016 have kept a lot of older shooters on the line that would have gone to any irons match rifles in the past. Since 2016, I have seen more any any shooter that do not even own a set of iron sights. The 4.5x Scope on a service rifle allows you to shoot some pretty darn good scores for a 20" barrel but it is really a Match rifle now. ( yes I have a WOA upper with Shilen barrel a Geissele trigger, handguard, a March scope in a Geissele rail and the UBR gen 1 stock. That cost as much as any of my bolt rifles.

I am like Bob and shoot in matches where I pull the scope and slap on the irons in between the second and third relay. That is a skill in itself. I get that this is a pricey sport but holy cow, try to keep up with an F open rig compared to running a SR and then picking up an Eliseo or traditional wood stocked bolt gun for prone matches. I have two tube guns, wood stocked Palma with optics and irons and an FTR rig in the safe for less than it would take to build a competitive F-open rifle with optic and front rest and rear bags.

 

[Heavy barrel]

In my opinion Palma needs to stay traditional Palma. It has to. It's the hardest disipline in long range prone. That's what attracts me to it.

(I can here the Fclass people typing about target size. Try holding the rifle on your elbow with a strong head wind & it's blowing you side to side 2 targets over.
Not bashing F-class at all. It's a different animal all to gather)

If you let Service rifle with scopes into Palma then it won't be long before iron sights are gone for ever. Please leave Palma alone!

 

[Heavy barrel]

If you look at the results form this past SWN. Look at the Optics class scores & compare them to the Any rifle scores. If the Any people would have been able to shoot Any all the way through that would be a very competitive class when combining Any & Optics. And a much bigger class.

 

[Jeff Porter]

There are some pretty good service rifle shooters on that list with the P by their name too... James Fox won the Nathan Hale today at Perry 497-24x. Brandon Green P100 Record holder 400-20x.. Several others who have been in the P100 shoot off in recent years too.

add to that Fox winning the Alice Bull Trophy today (792-32x)and record holder Justin Utley... (793-28x)

 

[jelenko]

If you look at the results form this past SWN. Look at the Optics class scores & compare them to the Any rifle scores. If the Any people would have been able to shoot Any all the way through that would be a very competitive class when combining Any & Optics. And a much bigger class.

How can you tell if an Any is using iron or optic sights?

 

[Jeff Porter]

How can you tell if an Any is using iron or optic sights?

From Practiscore 179 FO, 97 FTR 87, Slingers

 

[Jeff Porter]

Sling only - 60 Palma, 9 Any Optic only, 18 swapped between Palma, Any Any, Any Irons