Sizing issue

[Texas Solo]

I had to adjust my sizing die to bump the shoulder .002". Bolt closure is much better now. But by doing so, I have a problem with the necks being over sized, as in too tight. I hadn't thought about it until my cases got stuck on the 30cal mandrel on my trimmer. I'm getting .003 - .004 neck tension.
I'm OK with buying a new die, but I don't know how a bushing type die would work. Can I still bump the shoulder with it? If I get a neck sizing only die, wouldn't my FL sizing die still be over sizing the neck? Do I need 2 seperate dies? I understand how to measure & order the bushing size I would need. I just don't know how they work.

Federal GM match 308 brass.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

How did the neck of the die change? Most off the shelf FL sizing die have a neck diameter too small for a trimmer pilot and the sized brass will need expanding(decapping/expander rod in die or separate step) for trimming and/or loading. I use a expander mandrel after FL sizing (gutted) 0.002 under bullet diameter let's me load or trim. Yes your FL die will still size the neck to small, if that's what is happening.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I had to adjust my sizing die to bump the shoulder .002". Bolt closure is much better now. But by doing so, I have a problem with the necks being over sized, as in too tight. I hadn't thought about it until my cases got stuck on the 30cal mandrel on my trimmer. I'm getting .003 - .004 neck tension.
I'm OK with buying a new die, but I don't know how a bushing type die would work. Can I still bump the shoulder with it? If I get a neck sizing only die, wouldn't my FL sizing die still be over sizing the neck? Do I need 2 seperate dies? I understand how to measure & order the bushing size I would need. I just don't know how they work.

Federal GM match 308 brass.

Polishing your trimmer mandrel with some valve grinding compound to make it fit the sized case would be the easiest solution.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I had to adjust my sizing die to bump the shoulder .002". Bolt closure is much better now. But by doing so, I have a problem with the necks being over sized, as in too tight. I hadn't thought about it until my cases got stuck on the 30cal mandrel on my trimmer. I'm getting .003 - .004 neck tension.
I'm OK with buying a new die, but I don't know how a bushing type die would work. Can I still bump the shoulder with it? If I get a neck sizing only die, wouldn't my FL sizing die still be over sizing the neck? Do I need 2 seperate dies? I understand how to measure & order the bushing size I would need. I just don't know how they work.

Federal GM match 308 brass.

Neck sizing should not change when adjustment is made on shoulder sizing.

A great two die combination for 308 is a Redding body die and Lee collet but you should be able to sort out your current dies if they’re GTG.

 

[K22]

First up, those trimmer with pilots are not the best way to trim precision bottle neck rifle cases in my opinion. I stopped using them over 30 years ago. The reason is they tend to score the inside of the neck. A much better option, in my opinion, is a Wilson or similar designed trimmer with a case holder which doesn't touch the inside of the neck.

Second, don't go to neck sizing. You can produce excellently accurate reloads with a standard full-size die with the added benefit of more reliable reloads in terms of chambering.

In my opinion, the neck tension that you posted in not excessive as long as you can seat the bullet without distorting the case and maintain concentricity. For me, the most important aspect of neck tension is consistency, not a precise amount, but with the aforementioned conditions also met.

As far as bushing dies, the few bench rest shooters I know use them for ultra precision reloads demanded by their sport, but they also turn necks, weigh bullets, weigh cases, etc. If that is your game, then I would look into it since that seems to be the practice in the ultra-precision game. I am not in that game so I defer to those who are. However, for sure with neck turning, bushing die give one a method to more precisely size the necks with translates to more uniform neck tension.

Bottom line: I think you can make excellent reloads with your current equipment since the only problem you mentioned was fitting the trimmer pilot to the case neck. I would just upgrade my trimmer to a case holder designed trimmer.

 

[divingin]

Did you by any chance pull your FL die expander ball? The expander coming back through the neck is what sets the final neck diameter on a "standard" die.

There are bushing dies that still allow you to bump the shoulder (Forster and Redding both make these, I believe.) The other option is a set like the Redding 3-die set - 2 of the dies are for sizing: a neck-only bushing die, and a separate body die that sizes the case body and bumps the shoulder.

Easiest way to tell what bushing(s) you need is to measure a loaded round that fits in your rifle: Measure the neck exterior with a bullet seated, and subtract a couple of thousandths. Another method is to take your bullet diameter, and add twice the case neck wall thickness minus the couple thousandth's springback allowance.

So say you have .014" neck. The estimation is:

(.308" + .014" + .014" -.002") = .334" for the bushing size (loaded neck should measure around .336")

Note that you may want a few steps above and below that in case you want to change the neck tension, or you change to brass with a different neck thickness.

 

[Texas Solo]

Thanks for the ideas guys.
I have 2 options:
1) get a body die & a neck die with bushing. Make the process 2 separate steps.
2) get a better trimmer.

My trimmer has always done me fine, and good trimmers are $$$.
I can get 2 new dies for about $150.
Pilots are cheap, so I think I'll try grinding it down some.
My current neck tension seems excessive, but it is consistent and my groups are .300", so.....

 

[ShtrRdy]

You should be able to get a full length bushing die that will allow you to resize the case body and use a neck sizing bushing to set tension on the neck at the same time. I use the Redding type S that they call Full Length.

 

[Zero333]

You can get excellent results with regular RCBS FL dies with the expander ball in place.

I measured this target 2 days ago and it came out to be in the low 0.1 moa range...




Cheap Action
Winchester Brass
Pre-fit barrel
Not enough freebore
Using bi-pod and rear bag
Tactical Stock
Bushnell DMR glass, 3.5 - 20 x 50 mm.

What made the biggest difference was a Khantrol CLAMP-ON muzzle-brake.
Worked up the load without a brake and it never shot this good until the first group after putting on the clamp-on Khantrol brake.
You don't always need the most expensive everything. Sometimes you can get lucky with sub-par components.

You guys be the judge.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Forester standard full length sizing die ($75) with custom honed neck ($17) to your specifications

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Get a mandrel die body an the correct size mandrel to fit your trimmer mandrel, .001 -.002 larger. Or just size/polish your trimmer mandrel. You do use lube on the trimmer mandrel?

Frank

 

[Texas Solo]

Haven't seen expander mandrels in different sizes. Who makes them?
Tried polishing trimmer pilot but it must be some really hard steel. Made zero difference.

 

[quest450]

try 21st Century Innovation

Caliber Specific Expander Mandrel Kits

Our caliber specific expander mandrels are available in .0005” increments in calibers 22 to 338 and will range from .001” above bullet diameter to at least .003” below bullet diameter depending on caliber. This will allow the reloader to find proper neck tension to fine-tune their loads. The...

21stcenturyinnovation.com

 

[Kracken McGraw]

You can get excellent results with regular RCBS FL dies with the expander ball in place.

I measured this target 2 days ago and it came out to be in the low 0.1 moa range...


View attachment 1459771

Cheap Action
Winchester Brass
Pre-fit barrel
Not enough freebore
Using bi-pod and rear bag
Tactical Stock
Bushnell DMR glass, 3.5 - 20 x 50 mm.

What made the biggest difference was a Khantrol CLAMP-ON muzzle-brake.
Worked up the load without a brake and it never shot this good until the first group after putting on the clamp-on Khantrol brake.
You don't always need the most expensive everything. Sometimes you can get lucky with sub-par components.

You guys be the judge.

Haven't seen expander mandrels in different sizes. Who makes them?
Tried polishing trimmer pilot but it must be some really hard steel. Made zero difference.

That trimmer pilot sounds like a fun challenge to me to get it turned down some.

 

[searcher]

Neck sizing should not change when adjustment is made on shoulder sizing.

A great two die combination for 308 is a Redding body die and Lee collet but you should be able to sort out your current dies if they’re GTG.

Neck sizing can change when the die is run up or down as the position of the sizing button changes with it. If the de-cap assembly is not correctly positioned, it can lead to unexpected changes in neck tension.

 

[Webster]

I had to adjust my sizing die to bump the shoulder .002". Bolt closure is much better now. But by doing so, I have a problem with the necks being over sized, as in too tight. I hadn't thought about it until my cases got stuck on the 30cal mandrel on my trimmer. I'm getting .003 - .004 neck tension.
I'm OK with buying a new die, but I don't know how a bushing type die would work. Can I still bump the shoulder with it? If I get a neck sizing only die, wouldn't my FL sizing die still be over sizing the neck? Do I need 2 seperate dies? I understand how to measure & order the bushing size I would need. I just don't know how they work.

Federal GM match 308 brass.

I would run the neck expander from your neck turner thru the cases then they should fit on the trimmer mandrel? Yes many sizing dies close the necks way to much. Second choice, try trimming as fired the neck will be expanded probably more than a mandrel would. As fired might be a sloopy fit on the trimmer mandrel.

The bushing dies are used by almost all of the long distance serious competitors. They size the body normally. The only thing I don't like but it's OK is they only size the front half of the neck. No-body in competition uses neck size only dies. You need bushing dies if you want to control neck tension.

 

[Texas Solo]

"Second choice, try trimming as fired the neck will be expanded probably more than a mandrel would. As fired might be a sloopy fit on the trimmer mandrel."

Nope. The case will grow when sized, making the trimming inaccurate.

 

[AWS]

Lee quick trim system has been very accurate for me, no pilot. It is kind of a vertical Wilson only not as adjustable for length. With my 222 Rem, run them through a body die, Lee collet neck die, Lee quick trim and then chamfer by hand, I just knock the edges off..

I keep an old Lyman Tru-line Jr(7/8x14 head) set up with a 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 204 Ruger and 22-250 trim bodies and I can trim 222 Rem, 20P,223, 6x45, 22-204, 6mm-204, 25-204, 22-250 and 22-250AI cases with no adjustments other than changing the shell holder for the 22-250s.. For me it is very reasonable and it works.

 

[nmkid]

Maybe Eric Cortina's new body die would help for part of your problem.

 

[Texas Solo]

Maybe Eric Cortina's new body die would help for part of your problem.

Body isn't the issue, neck is.