shoulderd prefit vs gunsmith barrel

[ricco1949]

That combination of Tim's had some magic dust sprinkled on it. I don't think he ever duplicated that level of performance again. Any of us that have competed over the years have had special combinations. A great marriage between barrel and bullet is fun fun fun.

@DaveTooley

Yes Dave his heavy gun did have some magic dust sprinkled on it at the 2003 Nationals.

However, Tim was not a one hit wonder, even though he never won another National he remained competitive for a couple more years.

At the 2005 IBS 1000 Nationals at Iowa he registered the following top 10's out of 120 competitors.

3rd Two Gun Overall.
5th LG Score.
7th LG Overall
5th. HG Score
5th HG Overall.

All shot with his Savage actions . Tim gave up competitive shooting soon there after and has never competed since.

 

[DaveTooley]

@DaveTooley

Yes Dave his heavy gun did have some magic dust sprinkled on it at the 2003 Nationals.

However, Tim was not a one hit wonder, even though he never won another National he remained competitive for a couple more years.

At the 2005 IBS 1000 Nationals at Iowa he registered the following top 10's out of 120 competitors.

3rd Two Gun Overall.
5th LG Score.
7th LG Overall
5th. HG Score
5th HG Overall.

All shot with his Savage actions . Tim gave up competitive shooting soon there after and has never competed since.

Oh he made a point of telling me how he shot in IA as we were loading my truck.
That was the year Regan Green shot 3-4" heavy gun groups. Best shooting I have ever seen.

 

[urbanrifleman]

You BR boys can fight amongst yourselves.

I'll just say that nutted setups give the illusion of switch barrel capability. The reality is, nutted barrels are a pain in the ass to headspace the exact same way every time. I know somebody will be along to tell me they swap barrels on their savage to within .0001 every time, I just know I was never able to.

What it really does is prevent you from having to go to the gun smith to get a new barrel, but you end up with the thing on there until its shot out, because it's such a chore to swap barrels.

Shouldered barrels are true "switch barrel rigs". Takes ~2-3 minutes, and it's the exact same every single time.

Ultimately though, the right answer is to give your smith your action as many times as he needs. You'll usually end up with a better result...at least in my experience.

Edit: BTW - I doubt anyone asking this question is planning to shoot BR. If so, they'll find out about barrel nuts and pre-fits the expensive way.

If you want to switch barrels, put red loctite on the nut threads. Now you have a shouldered barrel. The nut stays on the barrel. Done it for years.

And why every post on this forum becomes a discussion of "shooting at the nationals" blah blah yawwwnnn... tired. How many guys in this country shoot rifles, and how many shoot at the Nationals? What is that .01%?

I remember this forum from when it was about shooting, somewhere along the line everything became about this tiny group of guys, with the idea to anyone posting not doing what they do is wrong. It's so boring.

Boring.

Nut barrels shoot the same for 99.9 percent of all shooters.

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

The end goal (and what it costs to achieve that) will determine the degree of accuracy and precision that is needed (or can be afforded in many cases).

As urbanrifleman alluded to, the vast majority of people are looking for a barrel that will shoot much better than a factory barrel. As most gun guys know.........that doesn't take a lot in most cases. Or............they just enjoy shooting different types of cartridges.........barrel swaps make it relatively easy to shoot a 223 one day and a 458 Win Mag the next if he wants to. Especially using a Savage rifle. Will it win a high end match?......no......will the guy who owns it have fun? YOU CAN BET ON IT!

Most people are wanting something better then factory and out of that a bunch are looking at something much more accurate, but not so much that it competes at a national level. Maybe at the local "best group wins a beer" contest is about it. Varmint punchers love the ability to change a shot out barrel themselves and can keep extra barrels in stock as they shoot. They don't have to stop shooting while the rifle is at the smith for months or even years. Screw off the barrel........screw another one on.......shouldered or barrel nutted.

In the end...........it's about having fun and enjoying shooting. I will NEVER compete in a national match........more then likely, I will never compete in any match that is important to anyone but myself. I do love chasing the accuracy bug as much as I can afford to..........

In the end, what is the desired goal? What does it cost? AM I GOING TO HAVE FUN DOING IT?

 

[urbanrifleman]

The end goal (and what it costs to achieve that) will determine the degree of accuracy and precision that is needed (or can be afforded in many cases).

As urbanrifleman alluded to, the vast majority of people are looking for a barrel that will shoot much better than a factory barrel. As most gun guys know.........that doesn't take a lot in most cases. Or............they just enjoy shooting different types of cartridges.........barrel swaps make it relatively easy to shoot a 223 one day and a 458 Win Mag the next if he wants to. Especially using a Savage rifle. Will it win a high end match?......no......will the guy who owns it have fun? YOU CAN BET ON IT!

Most people are wanting something better then factory and out of that a bunch are looking at something much more accurate, but not so much that it competes at a national level. Maybe at the local "best group wins a beer" contest is about it. Varmint punchers love the ability to change a shot out barrel themselves and can keep extra barrels in stock as they shoot. They don't have to stop shooting while the rifle is at the smith for months or even years. Screw off the barrel........screw another one on.......shouldered or barrel nutted.

In the end...........it's about having fun and enjoying shooting. I will NEVER compete in a national match........more then likely, I will never compete in any match that is important to anyone but myself. I do love chasing the accuracy bug as much as I can afford to..........

In the end, what is the desired goal? What does it cost? AM I GOING TO HAVE FUN DOING IT?

The forum was originally 6br.com, the point being that you could stick a good 6br barrel on a factory rifle with a decent stock and it would kick butt by comparison.

As far as I know, this forum was not started with nationals level competitors being the driving force. But for some reason it has become completely dominated by people who say it was...

 

[INTJ]

The forum was originally 6br.com, the point being that you could stick a good 6br barrel on a factory rifle with a decent stock and it would kick butt by comparison.

As far as I know, this forum was not started with nationals level competitors being the driving force. But for some reason it has become completely dominated by people who say it was...

This forum has become the premier place for high and extreme accuracy shooting disciplines. It's why many of us are here. I don't care why it was started, I care what is has become. I have left many forums for what they have become; it's nice to stay on one because of what is has become.

It's is rather short-sighted to be dismissive of the national level competitors and gunsmiths here. More than anyone they know what makes a rifle accurate when the ultimate in accuracy is a requirement. Most also hunt and started shooting in the woods. So they know how make any hunting rifle accurate for the intended application.

Whether it's a DG DR that is shooting 1-2" groups at 50 yds with express sights, a lever gun shooting 2" groups at 100 with aperture sights, a budget grade medium range deer rifle shooting 3/4" groups at 100 yds, or a long range elk rifle that shoots under 1/2 MOA at close range and consistently makes first round hits at long range; these guys have done it all.

On this forum, this topic went sideways when some made an inaccurate claim about the accuracy of long range competition rifles. While you might get away with that on other shooting sites, it won't fly here.

 

[urbanrifleman]

This forum has become the premier place for high and extreme accuracy shooting disciplines. It's why many of us are here. I don't care why it was started, I care what is has become. I have left many forums for what they have become; it's nice to stay on one because of what is has become.

It's is rather short-sighted to be dismissive of the national level competitors and gunsmiths here. More than anyone they know what makes a rifle accurate when the ultimate in accuracy is a requirement. Most also hunt and started shooting in the woods. So they know how make any hunting rifle accurate for the intended application.

Whether it's a DG DR that is shooting 1-2" groups at 50 yds with express sights, a lever gun shooting 2" groups at 100 with aperture sights, a budget grade medium range deer rifle shooting 3/4" groups at 100 yds, or a long range elk rifle that shoots under 1/2 MOA at close range and consistent makes first round hits at long range; these guys have done it all.

On this forum, this topic went sideways when some made an inaccurate claim about the accuracy of long range competition rifles. While you might get away with that on other shooting sites, it won't fly here.

I wasn't "dismissing" anyone. I was simply making an observation that this forum has become very boring and predictable as every thread devolves into "shooting at the nationals blah blah yawwwnnn"...

I would GLADLY shoot my stepDad's old 30/30 off hand at moving targets with any of the benchrest national champions... let's say 20 bucks... shoot man, let's make it $100...

 

[INTJ]

I wasn't "dismissing" anyone. I was simply making an observation that this forum has become very boring and predictable as every thread devolves into "shooting at the nationals blah blah yawwwnnn"...

I would GLADLY shoot my stepDad's old 30/30 off hand at moving targets with any of the benchrest national champions... let's say 20 bucks... shoot man, let's make it $100...

I'll bet a lot of them are as comfortable swinging on a pheasant or a running deer as they are at the bench. So your moving target competition sounds like a LOT of fun. I also like shooting at clay pigeons at 100 yds offhand with my Rem 541.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

If you want to switch barrels, put red loctite on the nut threads. Now you have a shouldered barrel. The nut stays on the barrel. Done it for years.

And why every post on this forum becomes a discussion of "shooting at the nationals" blah blah yawwwnnn... tired. How many guys in this country shoot rifles, and how many shoot at the Nationals? What is that .01%?

I remember this forum from when it was about shooting, somewhere along the line everything became about this tiny group of guys, with the idea to anyone posting not doing what they do is wrong. It's so boring.

Boring.

Nut barrels shoot the same for 99.9 percent of all shooters.

You're quoting me and making comments about nationals level competition. My post was actually reminding folks that anyone asking about barrel nuts probably isn't interested in BR shooting. I'm an F-Class guy, not a BR guy BTW....a crappy one at that.

Regarding them being the same, I stand by my comments. They may shoot the same (or close to the same), but they don't swap the same (i.e. I'm unaware of any that will headspace the same between actions, and that you can pull with the action in the stock, and the scope on the gun).

Edit: I also wouldn't recommend betting top level national competitors money on any shooting contests lol. If you are going to do it, you should bet them reloading components; make it really interesting.

 

[urbanrifleman]

You're quoting me and making comments about nationals level competition. My post was actually reminding folks that anyone asking about barrel nuts probably isn't interested in BR shooting. I'm an F-Class guy, not a BR guy BTW....a crappy one at that.

Regarding them being the same, I stand by my comments. They may shoot the same (or close to the same), but they don't swap the same (i.e. I'm unaware of any that will headspace the same between actions, and that you can pull with the action in the stock, and the scope on the gun).

Edit: I also wouldn't recommend betting top level national competitors money on any shooting contests lol. If you are going to do it, you should bet them reloading components; make it really interesting.

If you had two identical actions they would headspace the same.

Swapping with the scope on is a problem if you loctite the nut. That is true.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If you had two identical actions they would headspace the same.

Swapping with the scope on is a problem if you loctite the nut. That is true.

I often pull shouldered bbls from glue ins without removing the scope..fwiw.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I often pull shouldered bbls from glue ins without removing the scope..fwiw.

Correct.

With the nut, unless you cut a massive barrel channel you cannot withdraw the barrel down the channel under the scope.

If a person were serious about using the nut barrel and removing the barrel in the stock with the scope, one would simply cut the barrel channel larger than the nut diameter.

 

[Bc'z]

Correct.

With the nut, unless you cut a massive barrel channel you cannot withdraw the barrel down the channel under the scope.

If a person were serious about using the nut barrel and removing the barrel in the stock with the scope, one would simply cut the barrel channel larger than the nut diameter.

Over sized barrel channel would be esthetically unappealing.

 

[jelenko]

This forum has become the premier place for high and extreme accuracy shooting disciplines. It's why many of us are here. I don't care why it was started, I care what is has become. I have left many forums for what they have become; it's nice to stay on one because of what is has become.

It's is rather short-sighted to be dismissive of the national level competitors and gunsmiths here. More than anyone they know what makes a rifle accurate when the ultimate in accuracy is a requirement. Most also hunt and started shooting in the woods. So they know how make any hunting rifle accurate for the intended application.

Whether it's a DG DR that is shooting 1-2" groups at 50 yds with express sights, a lever gun shooting 2" groups at 100 with aperture sights, a budget grade medium range deer rifle shooting 3/4" groups at 100 yds, or a long range elk rifle that shoots under 1/2 MOA at close range and consistently makes first round hits at long range; these guys have done it all.

On this forum, this topic went sideways when some made an inaccurate claim about the accuracy of long range competition rifles. While you might get away with that on other shooting sites, it won't fly here.

Understand. But,
There is some tendency for comments to be about doing what it takes for the ultimate accuracy. To me that translates to $'s, some of which won't make a difference in whatever the person is doing/competing in. I'm not saying all comments are, but it seems there is a tendency.

 

[BigBlueandGoldie]

I think barrel nuts are great for those who don't have actions capable of ordering an off the shelf shouldered barrel. I have a couple of Savage rifles, but never swap barrels once installed. With that said, in my opinion shouldered barrels are definitely the way to go for ultimate accuracy and ease of swap. When I start chambering my own barrels my Savages will be shouldered.

I'm a low end club level shooter, but enjoy the discussions and insights shared by the different classes and experience levels on this board. I'll probably never shoot a single benchrest shot, but I find the discipline fascinating.

 

[INTJ]

Understand. But,
There is some tendency for comments to be about doing what it takes for the ultimate accuracy. To me that translates to $'s, some of which won't make a difference in whatever the person is doing/competing in. I'm not saying all comments are, but it seems there is a tendency.

Except your "but" is a core reason for this forum. A major goal is learning about and sharing methods for the ultimate in accuracy in all types of rifles and shooting styles. And it is not a $$ issue. With a standard hobby level reloading kit I and others can get most rifles to shoot as well as they can shoot. It is just painfully slow to load all the match ammo I need with such a kit. The expensive stuff I have is to increase speed of loading while maintaining precision.

I would guess that many non-competition shooters are here because they want to see if a competition shooter or 'smith has a technique or two that can help them get better accuracy out of their hunting or informal target rifle. A lot of F-Class and BR methods are directly applicable to long range hunting rifles.

And when a non-competition shooter starts finding success, they share their ideas and everyone benefits. At least that is how I see this forum.......

 

[DR_2297]

After 15+ years of chasing mechanical perfection (professionally and personally) in machinery where there will always be something beyond my dimensional control I decided that I am happy with 1/2 MOA rifles, where I then sling up and let the error come from my hold and execution. I find mastering myself much more gratifying than chasing an indicator to the nearest ten thousandth of an inch when there is more error in the entire machine and fixturing than that.. call me crazy.

I have been a breath away from setting a NRA national record from a sling with a CBI Remage on a run of the mill 700 shoved into an Eliseo @ 600 yards.. that’s 20 shots, from 600 yards in a 1 MOA circle with my elbows and a sling for support. I think 99.99% of the people out there would be tickled with that. I have never come close to repeating that feat from any other barrel I have had regardless of who did the work - from meh 700 to Borden and Barnard.

 

[JFrank]

www.NBRSA.org
www.mt1000yd.com
Y’all can follow these links to world records and Deep Creek results and decide for yourself what it takes to get there.

 

[jelenko]

Except your "but" is a core reason for this forum. A major goal is learning about and sharing methods for the ultimate in accuracy in all types of rifles and shooting styles. And it is not a $$ issue. With a standard hobby level reloading kit I and others can get most rifles to shoot as well as they can shoot. It is just painfully slow to load all the match ammo I need with such a kit. The expensive stuff I have is to increase speed of loading while maintaining precision.

I would guess that many non-competition shooters are here because they want to see if a competition shooter or 'smith has a technique or two that can help them get better accuracy out of their hunting or informal target rifle. A lot of F-Class and BR methods are directly applicable to long range hunting rifles.

And when a non-competition shooter starts finding success, they share their ideas and everyone benefits. At least that is how I see this forum.......

Right. Sharing what works is one thing - saying that others 'should' do something is another.
What others should do should be in context of what they are trying to do. I think some here simply assume that what is needed/appropriate for benchrest level accuracy is what others should do without knowing what their objective is.

PS. I'm not trying to argue against your post. I just replied to your post because it seemed a good place to start the point I am trying to make.

 

[INTJ]

Right. Sharing what works is one thing - saying that others 'should' do something is another.
What others should do should be in context of what they are trying to do. I think some here simply assume that what is needed/appropriate for benchrest level accuracy is what others should do without knowing what their objective is.

PS. I'm not trying to argue against your post. I just replied to your post because it seemed a good place to start the point I am trying to make.

I wonder if it is a simple communication issue? It's always very clear in my mind what the end state application is. Maybe that isn't always understood?