Shoulder on a Hornet?

[FJVance]

From the original design to countless variations.
I see some type of shoulder, maybe ever so slight, to radical steps.
Is this to mimic its larger brothers and to downplay some type of sibling shortcomings, or is there a viable reason to change this Old Man for the better?
Its really hard to measure the amount of shoulder we are talking about, that it might add some amount of volume to the case and therefore increase powder charge enough to notice.
Or is the shoulder on a Hornet more a matter of physics, referring to some chart in a giant book somewhere that would be priced at the college level?
I'm gonna say that maybe, rimmed cartridges and belted magnums have the same problem, neither one head space off a shoulder. And both of the above cartridges therefore cannot seal the chamber as well. The area of the shoulder, even as small and insignificant as a Hornet shoulder, could seal the chamber better than a simple rim or belt.

 

[searcher]

Even though they don't headspace off the shoulder - by not pushing the shoulder back more than .001" or so - one doesn't get the worst of the negative attributes of rim or belt head spacing.

 

[FJVance]

Good point.

 

[JSH]

Chambering seems to be the issue with this. If the bolt and the face of the barrel are “sloppy” you about have to use what ever shoulder there is to headspace on.

If you headspace off of the rim and size it that way you will get terrible case life. It will constantly work the web and separate.

Folks try to magnumize it contributing to the problem. I am down to one 22 Hornet. I size brass so the base of the case is against the bolt face, even if it has some of the web out of the chamber, if you follow me.

I have had several hornets over the years. Some by the same maker, yet fired cases side by side and with some measuring you would never know that.

The shoulder angle and the rim were from days and years past when black powder was in use. Long sloping shoulder angles and a good size rim made extraction easy and loading easy.

The way I size, right or wrong I get excellent case life. I load from 22RF speeds up to maximum book loads with no problem with brass.

Belts and rims have been covered in topics for years. It is not an absolute for headspace on either type.

 

[FJVance]

I agree, and maybe even the slightest shoulder will keep the base against the bolt face?

 

[jds holler]

I've been loading for 218 Bee for 40+ years. It is similar to the Hornet in that it headspaces on the rim. After losing a sickening number of brass to case-head separation, I learned to wait until I actually get "tight bolt lift", and then size just enough to loosen things up. (and just barely)

Using this method, I've extended brass life to the point where some could be considered genuine antiques. jd

 

[searcher]

I agree, and maybe even the slightest shoulder will keep the base against the bolt face?

Yes. It also helps to center the front of the cartridge as well as prevent excess brass stretch. One can buy a device to measure the rim thickness of rimmed cartridges (I use one for rimfire ammo), but the best thing to fix the Hornet problem (short of new chamber) is to keep the shoulders within .001" to 002" of contact in your chamber. I had my hornet re-barreled (Lilja tube) not too long ago and the gunsmith did the chamber tight enough that there is a very slight "crush" when the bolt is closed on factory ammo. I just set shoulders back .001" on fired brass. The accuracy is terrific on both new and reloaded and no brass stretch issues - which I really like because I turn the necks and like to see them last a bit.

 

[AWS]

Shoulders are basically to increase capacity on rimmed cartridges and to headspace rimless cartridges. No shoulders were quite common on turn of the 19/20th century. On the hornet I used a 218 Bee sizer to neck size my Hornets and didn't mess with the body at all, never had a problem with case separation or hard chambering in my Savage 219 break action or model 23 bolt-action.

I make brass and load for the cartridge below

L to R 243 Win, 6.5x58R Sauer, 9.3x72R the 9.3x72 is the parent case for the 6.5 and I have to swage them down to it. Although an archaic design it still shoots sub MOA at 200 yards with a 1-4x20mm scope on a 1926 drilling. Power is very close to a 25-35 Win.

​

 

[FJVance]

So, I'm gonna lean toward the idea that, with no shoulder, long throats, and loose chambers, I may have three strikes before I get up to bat.

 

[JSH]

So, I'm gonna lean toward the idea that, with no shoulder, long throats, and loose chambers, I may have three strikes before I get up to bat.

You might, but I doubt it.

Some may howl at this.

Seat a bullet long, jam, let it seat the bullet when the action is completely closed and locked. Fire it and do some measuring.

Head space is what you make of it. The rim nor the shoulder “seals” anything. The brass body expands and does the sealing. If your getting soot or smoke all the way back to the rim, it’s usuall one of two things or both.
Hard brass.
Light loads.

And, if the throat is long, it doesn’t mean it won’t shoot. That will depend on what your happy with.

 

[SmokinJoe]

If you are having problems with case stretch on new brass or factory ammo, you can actually lightly lubricate the ammo so that it doesn't "grab" the chamber walls and will seat itself against the boltface upon firing. After that just neck size with a Lee Collet Die. Most Hornets never get too tight in the chamber from repeated firing using only neck sizing because the pressures are relatively low. Another trick is to use only pistol primers because they fire with less firing pin force, also give better accuracy a lot of the time. Try some Fed 100 if you can find them.

 

[searcher]

Another trick is to use only pistol primers

The CCI 400's work pretty well too

 

[FJVance]

I like that, thank you.
I will try that next.

 

[PigButtons]

The K - Hornet was originally introduced to improve accuracy, the physics of the shoulder being better than the long sloping no shoulder version. There was an added plus in speed of 150 to 300 fps, partly because of the better physics and partly because of the extra 1 gr of capacity.

 

[ebb]

With the 222 and the 22TCM why does anybody bother with a hornet?

 

[jds holler]

With the 222 and the 22TCM why does anybody bother with a hornet?

To give you an idea, the Hornet, (and the Bee which is very similar), use about half of the powder charge that the 222 uses. It makes for a very mild and quiet round that is still very effective in the 0-200 yard range.

With the newer 35 and 40 gr varmint bullets, I can now easily get my Bee up to 3000 fps. The Hornet, almost.

They are simply a pleasure to shoot, and pretty laser-like at the normal range that ground squirrels are shot at. jd

 

[ebb]

I am only guessing but maybe the 222 doesn't need to be 100% fill, could it be loaded down? I understand the attraction to the hornet. But it seems the case is so thin and poorly designed every body has trouble with it. I want to think there is a modern case design that would give similar results. I have a friend that builds air boats and has some gator leases and has several hornets. He had me look at an old savage in 22 hornet and i took it to Ggmac and he looked at the lack of rifling. Ggmac says that hornet ammo was loaded with corrosive primers longer than almost all the other cases. This Savage had almost no rifling left so i believe Gary is right. To be honest ive never fired one, but looking at the posts here and elsewhere you have to be a witch doctor to get one to do right. I looked at mild 22s after the last 22LR ammo shortage, i had plenty on hand but was looking for a reloadable option. The one that looked good to me is the 22TCM. it can be made from 223 casings or bought as TCM already to load. Is the 221 fireball an option?

 

[snert]

Google "To Bee or not to Bee?" You will find an interesting article regarding downloading the 222/223 with blue dot to Bee velocity

 

[AWS]

I've had two 22 Hornets and both shot very well, but they were old school stuff Savage 23(bolt action) and Savage 219 (break action single shot). I never tried to get fancy with then 46gr Win HP's were their main diet with 2400, 4227 and later LiLgun. I killed a pile of fox with them when fox were worth a C-note each, made enough to buy a 222 Rem and never looked back. Sold the 23 to a collector and gave the 219 to my niece for her first predator rifle.

If I need light loads I load the 222 with 45gr SP's and 800x(from the Calhoun sight). I also down load shells with 33gr HP's for my 223 and 5.6x50R Mag to use as finishers or to pop a rabbit or grouse for the pot.

 

[FJVance]

I dearly love the 22LR and all it’s variations, but to be able to reload a Hornet with all the endless possibilities of bullet, powder, and primer, gives me as many possibilities of barrel, receiver, twist rates. I’v been a fan of the Mighty Hornet for 50 years. And I’ve owned some truly great ones.
While your here, look up my
5.7x28 Vance in this forum.