If you were going to use your stripped bolt to set you shoulder bump would you have to remove the extracter on a standard Rem 700 bolt and what about one with a sako extractor? The clip style are a pain in the butt to replace!! would the click over the rim effect the feel of the shoulder? Would would you have to do to alleviate the problem replace the extractor every time you use this method? And what about with the Sako extrator or a M16 style? I'm not referring to the ejecter just the extrator, Thanks,Ron
shoulder bump question using rem 700
- Thread starter RW
- Start date
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Strip the firing pin assembly and the ejector/plunger.
The Extractor stays on the bolt (and is needed to extract the sample case(s).
Here are video's (Alex's): www.wheeleraccuracy.com
Donovan
The Extractor stays on the bolt (and is needed to extract the sample case(s).
Here are video's (Alex's): www.wheeleraccuracy.com
Donovan
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If I was going to use my stripped bolt? We need to find someone that can measure the difference as in the difference in clearance between a bolt with the extractor and the same bolt without the extractor. (again) Something that makes no sense; a friend build 4 magnificent rifles, after completing one he went to the range to fire form his cases. He had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 rounds he fired. He called me, I said I could have determined if that would happen before he left the shop, I said I could have fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases, I suggested I could have met him at the rang and fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases. And I informed him I could have determine the difference in length between his cases and his chamber meaning I could have measured clearance before he left the shop.
In such matters I form first then fire, when I eject a case it is considered 'once fired'. Again, I have bump presses, all of my bump presses are cam over presses. My non cam over presses do not bump. I understand 'bump' is a cute term, the term 'bump' is associated, by reloaders, to moving the shoulder back. And again, I find it impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.
F. Guffey
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately.
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Like a moth to a flame. He just can't resist.
RW,
As dmoran said, only the firing pin assembly and ejector should be removed. Whatever type of extractor is present needs to remain for cartridge case removal.
Ken
kvd, that sounds great but there are claims the ejector holds the bolt off of the case head. No one know by how much and then there are rifles that have the ejector that is mounted in the rear receiver ring. So rather than just make this stuff up I check the ejector for protrusion above the bolt face. And then someone should ask why is it necessary to remove the firing pin. Many reloaders are limited in ability to check the length of the chamber. I have never found a rifle that had a firing pin that would not allow the bolt to close.
I have tested rifles for clearance with striped bolts, a builder wanted to reduce the length of the chamber by .0025", he had 100+ bolts, I offered to test his barreled receiver with all 100 bolts, and I promised him we would not find a bolt out of the 100 that would correct the problem. I also have 35 new/replacement bolts for his receiver, I offered to test his build with my bolts, I assured him there was not .001" difference in all 35 of my bolts.
F. Guffey
If the case is sized to minimum length/full length sized removing the case from the chamber is a matter of elevating the muzzle , of removing the case from the chamber add weight to the case or use a cleaning rod.
And then I offered to use special bolts that were used by arsenals. I also offered to modify his go-gages, he had 25 head space gages for the 30/06 chamber, not one of the 25 would fit. I had to tell him his chamber was .0025" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than go-gage length chamber. I explained to him he could measure the length of a 30/06 chamber with one gage; the one gage will measure from go-gage length to infinity. He was too comfortable with his box of gages.
I am not interested in knowing if the bolt will close on a go-gage, I want to know by 'how much'.
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dmoran
Donovan Moran
Wowzer, wowzer, wowzer....... this reply is so blatantly obvious how bad you Mr. Guffey are once again off topic, its silly. Totally not on topic at all to the OP's question or of the fallow on replies to the OP.
You truly are just as you so often state: "I am the only one".....
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.... His user name should have been effen' goofy.In SR BR there is always a Guffey type at every match. They are the ones in the loading area that are constantly blathering. The only ones paying any attention are the new guys trying to soak up info gained on supposed learned experience. The veterans have long learned to tune out these types and rely on their own instincts as to how to cope with the conditions at hand. Listening to this BS is just another obstacle to overcome in the learning curve.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
There is something else worth discussing here. First of all, let us look at the rationale behind using the rifle to check shoulder bump. If the die is correct for the chamber than all is well and we are in relatively good shape, except for the inconvenience of stripping the bolt every time that we want to check the die setting.
For those who shoot a lot with smaller sets of brass, work hardening will require a slight adjustment of die setting, more often than if larger sets of brass are used.
I have known many shooters that seem to view setting a die as a necessarily time consuming task, and that once a die has been set, that it can be left at that setting forever for that barrel or rifle. I disagree with both ideas.
Some years ago, setting up to load for my 6PPC at the range, forgetting that the last set of brass that I had set my die for was old and work hardened, I started sizing a fresh set. Luckily I thought to check shoulder bump after sizing just a couple of cases. The setting that had produced just .001 bump on the old cases, produced .0035 on the new, softer cases. From that point forward I began unsetting my die at the end of each range setting and resetting it the next time that I used it...by measurement. Which has worked very well since, and takes very little time once you get the hang of it.
On the other hand if the stars are not in proper alignment the die may be a bit too large for the chamber (so called match chamber) in which case, by the time that you get the stripped bolt feel that you are looking for, the shoulder will have been pushed back too far. I have seen this. (Shooters do not typically carefully measure case body diameters just above he head and at the shoulder, before and after sizing.)
If we use a gauge to set our dies and after doing so, the assembled bolt feel is not as we would like it to be, then we can be pretty sure that we need a different die, one that is smaller inside. I say this with all due respect to the fine shooters who strip bolts.
Years ago, after buying and using my first bump gauge, a Stoney Point, identical to what Hornady now sells as their headspace gauge, and being given one of those brass gauges that with a Harrell die, I told a friend that he might want to make himself one of the latter (given that he has a lathe) and he asked me why, after all of his years of experience reloading he would want to do that. He said that he was perfectly capable of doing the same thing by bolt feel. Anyway, I challenged him to set his die multiple times by feel (unsetting it between each time) and bring me the resultant cases to be measured with my gauge. He did, and the results were all over the place, varying considerably from case to case. At that point he went home and made gauges similar to the Harrell that I had for my 6PPC.
Finally, when we give advice on a popular forum we may be pretty sure that our audience is larger than just those that post on that thread, and that some of those readers may not have a full grasp of the subject being discussed. (None of us were born knowing this stuff.) For that reason alone, I am always going to advise to set dies by measurement rather than feel, since I seen no possible disadvantage to measuring, and there is a remote possibility that someone will set a die incorrectly (because of the unsuitability of the die for the chamber) and then proceed to size a large number of cases so that they have been bumped excessively.
For those who shoot a lot with smaller sets of brass, work hardening will require a slight adjustment of die setting, more often than if larger sets of brass are used.
I have known many shooters that seem to view setting a die as a necessarily time consuming task, and that once a die has been set, that it can be left at that setting forever for that barrel or rifle. I disagree with both ideas.
Some years ago, setting up to load for my 6PPC at the range, forgetting that the last set of brass that I had set my die for was old and work hardened, I started sizing a fresh set. Luckily I thought to check shoulder bump after sizing just a couple of cases. The setting that had produced just .001 bump on the old cases, produced .0035 on the new, softer cases. From that point forward I began unsetting my die at the end of each range setting and resetting it the next time that I used it...by measurement. Which has worked very well since, and takes very little time once you get the hang of it.
On the other hand if the stars are not in proper alignment the die may be a bit too large for the chamber (so called match chamber) in which case, by the time that you get the stripped bolt feel that you are looking for, the shoulder will have been pushed back too far. I have seen this. (Shooters do not typically carefully measure case body diameters just above he head and at the shoulder, before and after sizing.)
If we use a gauge to set our dies and after doing so, the assembled bolt feel is not as we would like it to be, then we can be pretty sure that we need a different die, one that is smaller inside. I say this with all due respect to the fine shooters who strip bolts.
Years ago, after buying and using my first bump gauge, a Stoney Point, identical to what Hornady now sells as their headspace gauge, and being given one of those brass gauges that with a Harrell die, I told a friend that he might want to make himself one of the latter (given that he has a lathe) and he asked me why, after all of his years of experience reloading he would want to do that. He said that he was perfectly capable of doing the same thing by bolt feel. Anyway, I challenged him to set his die multiple times by feel (unsetting it between each time) and bring me the resultant cases to be measured with my gauge. He did, and the results were all over the place, varying considerably from case to case. At that point he went home and made gauges similar to the Harrell that I had for my 6PPC.
Finally, when we give advice on a popular forum we may be pretty sure that our audience is larger than just those that post on that thread, and that some of those readers may not have a full grasp of the subject being discussed. (None of us were born knowing this stuff.) For that reason alone, I am always going to advise to set dies by measurement rather than feel, since I seen no possible disadvantage to measuring, and there is a remote possibility that someone will set a die incorrectly (because of the unsuitability of the die for the chamber) and then proceed to size a large number of cases so that they have been bumped excessively.
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To follow on Boyd's comments, Alex Wheeler has a good supplemental video on the topic regarding brass sizing and how well your dies fit your chamber.
To answer the original question about how to handle the extractor when dealing with this "bolt feel" method, the approach I use is to pull the bolt out, clip the brass into the case head under the extractor, then feed the bolt/brass back into the gun as one assembly. That avoids any effect of feeling the brass snap under the extractor when you first chamber it.
To answer the original question about how to handle the extractor when dealing with this "bolt feel" method, the approach I use is to pull the bolt out, clip the brass into the case head under the extractor, then feed the bolt/brass back into the gun as one assembly. That avoids any effect of feeling the brass snap under the extractor when you first chamber it.
You are correct - and it may not be worth the trouble all the time for some to drift out the spring style ejector pin. I use a right bolt, left load, right eject action and don't use the ejector but simply bump out the spent round as I insert the new round. Also as mentioned by Sheldon N above, when measuring case fitment and bullet seating depth, I clip the case in the bolt under the M-16 style extractor before inserting the bolt/case unit back in the rifle.
Ken
For years reloading forum members have recommended ordering a bucket to bolts when making attempts to control the length of the chamber. I have always felt if the seller of the bolt and the buyer of the bolt knew what they were doing and understood 'the bolt' only one bolt would be necessary. And then there are members that remind me of 'Johnny one note', they only have one way and they insist it is the only way. Not me, If I was going to set up a die to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head I would measure the length of a fired case from the shoulder to the case head. I would not use a five time fired case, I would use a once timed fired case.
If the reloader is sizing the case and shortening the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to reduce case travel they are looking for the magic .002" reduction in length. When I adjust my dies I reach for the feeler gage and or height gage. I know, most reloaders use the 1/4 additional turn, others use pennies, dimes and nickels.
My favorite case is the case that will not allow the bolt to close because the case is too long from the shoulder to the case head. I have paid a premium for cases that have been fired in trashy old long chambers, the most I have paid for these cases is .07 cents each, that is cheap when I consider I paid someone .07 cants each to fire cases, that includes the trip to the range.
F. Guffey
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Again, totally not on topic at all to the OP's question or of the fallow on replies to the OP.
You truly are the only one.....
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Guffey
You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Remington marks its bolts to indicate variations from the basic dimensions.
Take a look at the attachment and tell me that Remington does not know what it is doing selling bolts.
You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Remington marks its bolts to indicate variations from the basic dimensions.
Take a look at the attachment and tell me that Remington does not know what it is doing selling bolts.
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