Shoulder Bump Die?

[BoydAllen]

Here's the deal. Bushings in FL dies generally float, and unless they are the solid carbide variety have runout between their ID and OD. The neck hits the floating bushing before the body really engages its part of the die, so the whole case can be off center and slightly cocked and the bushing off center when it is pinned to the plug that holds it down against the force of sizing. Bushing dies have their advantages, but they are not perfect. The best that you can do, IMO, is to have a one piece die that has a neck ID such that you have the minimum neck tension that you will use with the expander working, and a thousandth more with it removed. I have one die that fits that description, almost. It is fine for the other powders that I might use, but its neck is 1-2 thousandths bigger than I would like for 133, and cases come out of it with no more than one third of a thousandth runout, at the ends of their necks. Other projects, that I have helped friends spec. out reamers for, with tight necks, sized for off the shelf one piece dies, have come out just outstanding as far as sized case straightness. For unturned necks, I don't think that anything is better than a Collet die followed by a body die, or a FL die with the bushing removed, which is a more expensive way to get to the same result. I really liked the previous poster's tip about trim dies, I think I have one around here that I need to try.

 

[mikecr]

A trim die does sound like another option.

 

[LHSmith]

A trim die does sound like another option.

Possibly, but not likely......remember tolerance stack-up....you have a generic chamber....using generic ( "one size fits all" dies) and in the end you will most likely end up with a die that "even though it pushes the shoulder back" does NOT eliminate the very problem you are trying to correct (which I believe is hard chambering). And this is because you are bulging the body/ shoulder junction.

 

[JRS]

Here's the deal. Bushings in FL dies generally float, and unless they are the solid carbide variety have runout between their ID and OD. The neck hits the floating bushing before the body really engages its part of the die, so the whole case can be off center and slightly cocked and the bushing off center when it is pinned to the plug that holds it down against the force of sizing. Bushing dies have their advantages, but they are not perfect. The best that you can do, IMO, is to have a one piece die that has a neck ID such that you have the minimum neck tension that you will use with the expander working, and a thousandth more with it removed. I have one die that fits that description, almost. It is fine for the other powders that I might use, but its neck is 1-2 thousandths bigger than I would like for 133, and cases come out of it with no more than one third of a thousandth runout, at the ends of their necks. Other projects, that I have helped friends spec. out reamers for, with tight necks, sized for off the shelf one piece dies, have come out just outstanding as far as sized case straightness. For unturned necks, I don't think that anything is better than a Collet die followed by a body die, or a FL die with the bushing removed, which is a more expensive way to get to the same result. I really liked the previous poster's tip about trim dies, I think I have one around here that I need to try.

That is ONE of the reasons the WTC die outshines the rest…. every day of the week, and twice on Sunday

 

[bigedp51]

A trim die does sound like another option.

Possibly, but not likely......remember tolerance stack-up....you have a generic chamber....using generic ( "one size fits all" dies) and in the end you will most likely end up with a die that "even though it pushes the shoulder back" does NOT eliminate the very problem you are trying to correct (which I believe is hard chambering). And this is because you are bulging the body/ shoulder junction.

I have stated before we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers, dies and cartridge cases vary in size and how soft the brass is. What bothers me in your response is you are making an assumption based on guesswork. Why don't you try using a case forming die and try it before guessing about something that works for other people.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, because I use the case forming and trim dies for bumping the shoulders in milsurp rifles with long fat chambers that do not conform to SAAMI standards. Therefore if someone has a tight custom chamber and anneals his brass regularly the shoulder may mushroom in a case forming die. On these milsurp rifles I use a full length die to partially resize the cases and a case forming die to bump the shoulders when needed. And partial full length resizing and the case forming dies do not cause the shoulder to mushroom or cause hard chambering in my rifles.

So do the forum a big favor and try this method before guessing about the outcome, it works for me and the person who told me to try it and neither one of us are guessing if it works.

This posting is not meant to be insulting to you, it is a admission that I do not have any tightly chambered custom rifles and do not know if a case forming die will work in this type application.

"BUT" there are many, many people reading this posting that the case forming die may work very well in their rifles, and in some it might not. "BUT" guessing about a subject isn't the type of information people need to hear on this subject.

We already have the OP stating he used a full length body die as a bump die and I can see inexperienced people who read his posting spreading this myth across the internet.

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and sometimes the pluses and minuses can be quite large.

Below Remington doesn't even know where to put the shoulder of the case.

And below the amount the case is sticking above the Wilson case gauge is how much longer the chamber is than SAAMI standards.

And if any of you reading this wants to try the case forming die for bumping the shoulder and report back to the forum on how it worked our "factual" knowledge base will grow.

 

[LHSmith]

Thank you for your kind and timely response.....however these dies can be expensive and hard to find.
IMHO, this is a whole lot of backwards engineering just to save a few cases that will always be problematic anyway.
I still want to know how the use of extended shell holders did anything to help the OP...other than the press handle position......was it more horizontal so that he could stand on it?
Besides, since the OP posted on this website which specializes in accuracy, I am pretty sure accuracy is one of his goals in finding a fix to his problem. Perhaps Rube Goldberg fixes work with .303 British milslurps, but in accurate rifles you'll find you will always be chasing your tail trying quick-fixes with substandard equipment.
BTW, this question was also asked on Benchrest Central and the overwhelming concensus echoed fguffy's response........just saying.

 

[bigedp51]

LHSmith

1. Please post the link from Benchrest Central where they have proof a "case forming die" will not work as a shoulder only bump die. Or are you just dropping that forums name to add credit to your guesswork? And 95% of fguffeys posting are unintelligible and I do not bother reading them and how he invented datums. :

Below is the +.004 shell holder I use when full length resizing .223/5.56 cases for my AR15 rifles

2. "NORMALLY" if you would use a +.008 competition shell holder in a properly headspaced rifle you would squeezed the shoulder forward and the case would be too long for the chamber.
(plus or minus a long milsurp rifle chamber) And the OP hasn't returned to show us how he worked his magic shoulder bump only with a full length body die. :

3. When I see BoydAllen's reply I can see the gears turning and him saying this might work.

I am always glad to learn something new. I'll file that one away.

3. When I see your response I see Scrooge saying "Bah Humbug!
(so you won't be getting a case forming and trim die for Christmas from me)

A trim die does sound like another option.

Possibly, but not likely......remember tolerance stack-up....you have a generic chamber....using generic ( "one size fits all" dies) and in the end you will most likely end up with a die that "even though it pushes the shoulder back" does NOT eliminate the very problem you are trying to correct (which I believe is hard chambering). And this is because you are bulging the body/ shoulder junction.

And if you remember the TV series Dragnet you should remember Sgt. Joe Friday saying 'Just the facts, ma'am'.......and LHSmith you haven't given any facts.

 

[Brians356]

.....however these dies can be expensive and hard to find.
... I still want to know how the use of extended shell holders did anything to help the OP...other than the press handle position. ... in accurate rifles you'll find you will always be chasing your tail trying quick-fixes with substandard equipment.

> these dies can be expensive and hard to find.

A Redding Body Die? Ordered it from Midsouth, $26.25, delivered in 5 days standard shipping.

> I still want to know how the use of extended shell holders did anything to help the OP...other than the press handle position.

The Redding Competition Shellholders allow controlled die engagement with the case, in .002" increments. Avoids adjusting the die body engagement with the press - you always put the die hard against the shellholder (say 1/8 turn overcammed) - so a year from now you can replicate the same case engagement without trial-and-error. (Unless you trust the lock ring set screw on the die - I don't.)

> in accurate rifles you'll find you will always be chasing your tail trying quick-fixes with substandard equipment.

Redding makes substandard equipment? Good to know. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Brians356]

Brians356, you got a great handle on this and sizing in general.
Glad the body die fit so well, sometimes they do and hopefully it will continue.
Now if you don't have it yet I suggest Sinclair expander die/mandrel for pre expansion prior to bullet seating. Make straighter seating and more consistent depths/tension.

Thanks, I'll look into that expander.

 

[Brians356]

Using a .35-cal Stoney Point bullet comparator to contact the shoulders near the middle, my low-tech Mitutoyo dial caliper indicates the shoulders are being set back ~1-2 thousandths.

Correction: I used a .375-cal comparator insert.

 

[LHSmith]

After participating in this thread, now I know how frustrated George Burns must have been after talking with Gracie :.

 

[Brians356]

After participating in this thread, now I know how frustrated George Burns must have been after talking with Gracie :.

Burns with Schreiber.

 

[Raythemanroe]

My wifes best friend growing up was the grandaughter of Burns's agent (Erving Fine)


Ray

 

[bigedp51]

After participating in this thread, now I know how frustrated George Burns must have been after talking with Gracie :.

Dear LHSmith
After you participated in this thread that started off about bumping the shoulder only, you made comments about case forming dies that you have never used and know nothing about (Gracie)

And the OP managed to bump his shoulder with a full length body die set .008 above the shell holder and I'm using a +.004 shell holder to bump my AR15 cases back .003.
The SAAMI allows .010 between minimum and maximum headspace so technically this puts the OP headspace well past the NO-GO gauge for his 6mm.

I said we lived in a plus and minus manufacturing world but it doesn't answer the question about the posibility of a really "plus" die the OP is using or if he has a improperly headspace rifle, or both.

I am looking for a shoulder-only "bump" die, thought Redding made them, but all I find are "body" dies which full-length resize the body.

I prefer not to resize the base, only bump the shoulder back a tad. Who makes what I want? (It's for 6mm Rem.)

Update:
My conclusion is that, using the controlled sizing afforded by the stepped shellholders, the "body die" has been used successfully as a "bump die".

And a full length resizing body die is "NOT" a shoulder only bump die, and anyone can bump their shoulder with a full length resizing die.

And if the OP did manage to bump his shoulder back with .008 clearance under his die he must be "simply marvelous".

After all this is the "Accurate Shooter" forum and we even have people who hook up torque wrenches to their presses to get uniform neck sizing when using Lee collet dies.

I have to go now, I have to full length resize some cases and hang in with the "rat turd in the violin case" crowd.

 

[Brians356]

And a full length resizing body die is "NOT" a shoulder only bump die, and anyone can bump their shoulder with a full length resizing die.

Gracie, I never said (or even implied) a full-length body die was a "shoulder-only bump die". (Quote, please?)

I said I was able to make my full-length body die perform "as a bump die."

Suppose you took a case and succeeded in setting back the shoulder without reducing the body diameter. Could you see your way clear to admitting that is indeed "bumping the shoulder"? If not, why not?

 

[bigedp51]

And a full length resizing body die is "NOT" a shoulder only bump die, and anyone can bump their shoulder with a full length resizing die.

Gracie, I never said (or even implied) a full-length body die was a "shoulder-only bump die". (Quote, please?)

I said I was able to make my full-length body die perform "as a bump die."

Suppose you took a case and succeeded in setting back the shoulder without reducing the body diameter. Could you see your way clear to admitting that is indeed "bumping the shoulder"? If not, why not?

Anything is possibly in our plus and minus manufacturing world, I have a Lee full length die that will push the shoulder back .009 shorter than the GO gauge when it makes hard contact with the shell holder.

But then again I find it hard to think a Redding body die would be made to the same loosey goosey standards as a Lee die.

The truth of the matter is too many postings in forums are like the X-Files and very hard to believe.

And a few reading this thread will know.........................

You just have to dig through all the garbage to find it.

 

[Brians356]

I have a Lee full length die that will push the shoulder back .009 shorter than the GO gauge when it makes hard contact with the shell holder.

I would think, then, that you might recognize the advantage of owning a set of Redding Competition Shellholders. You could then assume no sizing die is 100% accurate or trustworthy for a given chamber, yet then proceed to use any example with confidence - repeatably - using the appropriate shellholder.

 

[bigedp51]

brians356

Actually in hindsight I should have stayed out of your train wreck of a posting, I could have been sitting at the reloading bench and full length resizing my cases enjoying the good life.

You are truly amazing, first you insult me and the information in my postings and NOW you wan't to have a discussion?

And to be very truthful I don't care if you bump your case shoulders back using a sledge hammer and the appropriate size 1/2 inch drive socket.

P.S. I gave myself an A+ for the above cut and paste.

Have a "Simply Marvelous" day Gracie or should I call you Primitive Pete?

 

[Old Navy]

bigedp51 wrote this statement.

2. "NORMALLY" if you would use a +.008 competition shell holder in a properly headspaced rifle you would squeezed the shoulder forward and the case would be too long for the chamber.
(plus or minus a long milsurp rifle chamber) And the OP hasn't returned to show us how he worked his magic shoulder bump only with a full length body die. :

I actually was using a + .010 on my last barrel. (gun in the shop as we speak being re-barreled) The caliber was 6BRX. My Redding Type S FL die was bumping the shoulder .002" and was not close to the shell holder. I always like the press to just cam over to get a consistent .002". I wasn't getting that so I bought a set of the competition shell holders. That solved the problem but I didn't know why until now. I bought my own reamer and a set of go no-go gauges from PT&G this go round. To make a long story short, my chamber is .003" longer than the no-go gauge. My new smith assured me this will not happen again. Later! Frank

 

[bigedp51]

We are getting closer to the truth now.
(and the following is humor........sort of.........well close but no cigar)

Now its my turn to "guess"............ the OP was lubing his cases and now has lug setback from excessive bolt thrust and his headspace increased.

I can't wait for all the replies........