Should F-class shooters be required to pull targets?

[SDDasher]

Instead of calling the thread an "argument" let's call it a discussion; sounds better and more in line with the spirit of competition. Yes a paid puller could be influenced by monetary dispensation just like a "friend" could do the same to advance ones score. Random squading could elevate those concerns. I like others think the option of pullers should be open to all or none leveling the opportunity. Getting and keeping shooters on the line is a "good" thing IMHO.
Like electronic targets, smaller "x" rings, etc., no one said change wasn't going to be challenging.
I'm a former XTC three time participant at Camp Perry National Highpower Championships during the 1990's and honor the hallowed traditions of old. I also recognize the attack on our liberties from those among us in favor of restricting our "rights" based upon ill conceived notions about the equipment we use for competition.
I'm looking forward to growing this relatively new arm of highpower competitions not stiffening participants. After all highpower prone is always available to the die hard traditionalist.

Wes Cummings

 

[Keith Kilby]

The Rocky Mountain Regional this past weekend in Missoula had a limited number of paid pullers available. ALL the paid pullers were kids from the Montana JR program using this as a fund raiser to be able to attend matches at Camp Perry. I do pit duty at every match I shoot but I paid for one of the kids this year at this match. I was proud to be able to help these juniors out with their quest to get to Camp Perry. I applaud their hard work and ingenuity in coming up with a fund raiser in line with their sport. Our puller, Libby, did a spectacular job....the service was not the fastest on the line but it was exactly the same tempo every shot all day for both days...I was impressed. I hope these kids continue and make it back to Perry every year.

 

[Mozella]

....... snip...............I was proud to be able to help these juniors out with their quest to get to Camp Perry. I applaud their hard work and ingenuity in coming up with a fund raiser in line with their sport. Our puller, Libby, did a spectacular job....the service was not the fastest on the line but it was exactly the same tempo every shot all day for both days...I was impressed. I hope these kids continue and make it back to Perry every year.

I think the idea of employing a group of scouts or other youth group to be target pullers is a wonderful idea, but only if they pull ALL the targets, their payment is included in the entry fee, and they are not assigned to a particular shooter. Rotating pullers to different targets each string would be even better. That way there would be no question of "tipping" for good service or any of that potentially questionable activity.

A system like that would put all the shooters on equal footing and I would be more than happy to participate in a match with "professional" pullers as long as every target was involved. It's not so much the cost of a puller that bothers me as the unequal edge a shooter would have if he is allowed to hire a puller while his competitors have to pull targets themselves.

 

[Damfino]

Some of my best match memories occurred in the pits. For me it can be a place of higher learning. Spending time with people like Wes Cummings, or William Wittman invariably improves my own shooting. Call it camaraderie, esprit de corps, or what you will. Sure it can be boring and tedious combined with lots of stress and pressure to get it right. But, spending time with like minds, following a shared passion, and the fun that comes with doing a good job, it's hard to beat. However, I don't think it should be required. If a shooter can pay for a competent puller, that's just fine, if it keeps him or her shooting.

Bill Allbritton

 

[Cakes]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents FWIW. If physically able to do pit service then one should "participate" in this "ritual"! I have absolutely NO problem with the shooter who has a physical limitation that interferes with pit service and requires a paid puller. Yes it can be quite miserable on a hot steamy day in July and I'm no young spring chicken either but I suck it up and enjoy the event as best I can. Some of my most memorable times have been in the pits with fellow shooters. One must remember that you always get a little "rest" when coming out of the pits as you get to score. If I could watch instead of pit service, this would be a "huge" advantage in deciphering the "winds". No problem with paid pullers...just add the fees in registration and make it available for all. Eric in DL

 

[savagedasher]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents FWIW. If physically able to do pit service then one should "participate" in this "ritual"! I have absolutely NO problem with the shooter who has a physical limitation that interferes with pit service and requires a paid puller. Yes it can be quite miserable on a hot steamy day in July and I'm no young spring chicken either but I suck it up and enjoy the event as best I can. Some of my most memorable times have been in the pits with fellow shooters. One must remember that you always get a little "rest" when coming out of the pits as you get to score. If I could watch instead of pit service, this would be a "huge" advantage in deciphering the "winds". No problem with paid pullers...just add the fees in registration and make it available for all. Eric in DL

That is how I would feel. Larry

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I've skipped a few matches due to physical flare ups and the inability to pull targets without risking additional injury. I would appreciate the availability of paid pullers or the option to privately arrange and pay someone else to do it for me.

I also think this would be of great benefit to the younger generation of shooters. Older shooters who may have physical limitations have a lot of wisdom and encouragement to share with younger shooters. Too rigid a view on paid target pullers could push them from the sport and deprive the younger generation many years of their friendship and advice.

One thing I love most about the shooting sports (compared with other sports) is the integration across vast age ranges. There are no other sports where my grandchildren will get to compete alongside of and hear war stories from veterans from Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc. I'd hate any policy that restricted participation from the older shooters.

F-Class was created, in part, to allow continued participation from the older shooters.

 

[Cakes]

I totally agree that as a "sport" we don't want to "exclude" anybody. I was at a long range event this past weekend and I had the "honor" of shooting several lanes down from a gentleman who served "behind the lines" during the Korean conflict. I had the most admiration for this guy in his mid 80's, shooting f-class/open with a shooting jacket and of all things he did it with a 300 Win mag! What a Marine Corp trooper in the literal sense as he did shoot for the Marine Corp rifle team as well. Not sure if he pulled targets and it made absolutely now difference either way as it was " WAY COOL" to see him shoot!! Totally envious! Eric in DL

 

[FatBoy]

So let me pose these questions to those who think 10-15 targets of paid pullers is a good idea:

1) have you ever run a highpower match?
2) have you ever tried to find 15-30 juniors to show up as pullers?
2a) if so, did they all show up?
3) How much extra do you add to everyone's match fees to pay for these pullers?

This is another logistical hurdle for match directors, who already volunteer a decent amount of time and effort to give shooters a venue. Again, we always allow someone disabled to bring a puller but they go to the pits with them when the relays rotate.

 

[savagedasher]

So let me pose these questions to those who think 10-15 targets of paid pullers is a good idea:

1) have you ever run a highpower match?
2) have you ever tried to find 15-30 juniors to show up as pullers?
2a) if so, did they all show up?
3) How much extra do you add to everyone's match fees to pay for these pullers?

This is another logistical hurdle for match directors, who already volunteer a decent amount of time and effort to give shooters a venue. Again, we always allow someone disabled to bring a puller but they go to the pits with them when the relays rotate.

Have you ever seen a Boy Scout that didn't do what he said he would ? Larry

 

[ShootDots]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I am getting older and although I can still (and still do) pull with the best of 'em, when it's REALLY hot, it takes it's toll on me. At B-I-G matches, like 2+ day events, by the end, I am one whooped old man. And I can guarantee you my scores will suffer to some degree. On the other hand, I have had pullers at these "large" events and I have had some doozies! I can assure you that I have lost more points due to poor pulling than I would have lost from fatigue! The matches could be "evened out", IF (And This is a B-I-G IF) you would randomly switch pullers after every match so nobody gets saddled with "okay" and someone else has a GREAT puller for all 3 matches. At my age, in the heat, for large matches, I want a puller, even if that puller is "less than stellar"! So, should we ALL have paid pullers? That would be nice, however, in many cases, if not most, you can't marshal enough of them to get everyone a paid puller. This has been my experiences over 6 years of F-Class competition.

 

[FatBoy]

Have you ever seen a Boy Scout that didn't do what he said he would ? Larry

I haven't seen a boys scout troop around Nashville in 20 years. I'm sure they're out there but they weren't beating our door down, and the co-presidents were teachers at two different schools with one running the FFA and the other a shop teacher.. This isn't 1950s and $20 is no match to an X Box.

So, have you ever ran highpower matches?

 

[savagedasher]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I am getting older and although I can still (and still do) pull with the best of 'em, when it's REALLY hot, it takes it's toll on me. At B-I-G matches, like 2+ day events, by the end, I am one whooped old man. And I can guarantee you my scores will suffer to some degree. On the other hand, I have had pullers at these "large" events and I have had some doozies! I can assure you that I have lost more points due to poor pulling than I would have lost from fatigue! The matches could be "evened out", IF (And This is a B-I-G IF) you would randomly switch pullers after every match so nobody gets saddled with "okay" and someone else has a GREAT puller for all 3 matches. At my age, in the heat, for large matches, I want a puller, even if that puller is "less than stellar"! So, should we ALL have paid pullers? That would be nice, however, in many cases, if not most, you can't marshal enough of them to get everyone a paid puller. This has been my experiences over 6 years of F-Class competition.

I can name several places where pullers can be found .
Boy scouts
Church groups
FFA or 4H
My Granddaughter soccer team
Sometimes all it takes is to ask others .
Larry

 

[FatBoy]

I can name several places where pullers can be found .
Boy scouts
Church groups
FFA or 4H
My Granddaughter soccer team
Sometimes all it takes is to ask others .

Larry

Larry,

Have you EVER ran a match? Did you organize paid pullers?

 

[savagedasher]

I haven't seen a boys scout troop around Nashville in 20 years. I'm sure they're out there but they weren't beating our door down, and the co-presidents were teachers at two different schools with one running the FFA and the other a shop teacher.. This isn't 1950s and $20 is no match to an X Box.

So, have you ever ran highpower matches?

I can tell you it wouldn't be a problem to find help in my area .
I can name several churches that would pull targets and fix lunches for all . Larry

 

[dcali]

I haven't seen a boys scout troop around Nashville in 20 years. I'm sure they're out there but they weren't beating our door down, and the co-presidents were teachers at two different schools with one running the FFA and the other a shop teacher.. This isn't 1950s and $20 is no match to an X Box.

So, have you ever ran highpower matches?

I dont know if they still do this, but Quantico used to reliably hire boatloads of kids. At $20/shooter, thats not a bad day's work. It's totally doable. Maybe $25 or $30 these days. Yes, the match director must do a little more work.

 

[FatBoy]

I can tell you it wouldn't be a problem to find help in my area .
I can name several churches that would pull targets and fix lunches for all . Larry

You're area is the exception then.

I'm going to assume you've never actually made this happen. Not trying to be a "richard head" here but until you've actually hurded the cats and pushed the string, don't assume you can make this happen. Lots of people say they can commit until it's go time, then they have more excuses than Jimmy Carter has little liver pills.

 

[Immike]

I can name several places where pullers can be found .
Boy scouts
Church groups
FFA or 4H
My Granddaughter soccer team
Sometimes all it takes is to ask others .
Larry

I was wondering where the puller tree was. Lol.
I've hired kids to pull and here's how this goes..... With 1 boy then I have 1 boy, with 2 boys then I only have 1/2 a boy, 3 boys then I don't have any boys

Your gonna need a drill Sargent when you got a herd of them!!

I will say this, If they volunteer then you can make it work!

 

[savagedasher]

You're area is the exception then.

I'm going to assume you've never actually made this happen. Not trying to be a "richard head" here but until you've actually hurded the cats and pushed the string, don't assume you can make this happen. Lots of people say they can commit until it's go time, then they have more excuses than Jimmy Carter has little liver pills.

Church did
We had several archery shoots that were small 140 shooters . They set and picked up targets cook lunch and brought drinks to the ranges . And did it for just the tips lunch the charge for the meal .
They had 4H shoot a couple months ago that had 160 plus shooters and the kids did all the work . You just don't have much confidence in kids .Larry

 

[savagedasher]

I was wondering where the puller tree was. Lol.
I've hired kids to pull and here's how this goes..... With 1 boy then I have 1 boy, with 2 boys then I only have 1/2 a boy, 3 boys then I don't have any boys

Your gonna need a drill Sargent when you got a herd of them!!

It in rual Florida where they say Yes Sir and No Mam. Larry