Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
I do understand your point as well as others.
I am at this point go along Don
Merry Christmas
ShotMarker
- Thread starter sfinn1
- Start date
I am at this point go along Don
Merry Christmas
How can pitman check a challenge shot when target full of holes?
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
dcali
Bullet Maker
I haven't had cable issues. But the connectors are what they are, and have been a source of problems for me from time to time. They're not really designed to be used out in the elements. It would be nice if they were upgraded to something a little more robust.
This is a great thread. I hadn't realised that such a plethora of ETS's had come to the market. The limit of my knowledge was the SIUS system which I couldn't pursue because of the cost.
Most here are posting comments about the 'Shotmarker' system but there have been a couple about 'Silver Mountain'. Without wanting to start a "dog fight", is there any consensus as to which is a better system? BTW, all of the competitions that I shoot with centrefire rifle are gauged (up, and down) to 8 mm.
Also, is there any recommendation from the forum members for a (specifically) sub-sonic system for Air-Rifle (10 mtr) and 22LR (Std/Target) velocity out to, say, 100 mtr?
Most here are posting comments about the 'Shotmarker' system but there have been a couple about 'Silver Mountain'. Without wanting to start a "dog fight", is there any consensus as to which is a better system? BTW, all of the competitions that I shoot with centrefire rifle are gauged (up, and down) to 8 mm.
Also, is there any recommendation from the forum members for a (specifically) sub-sonic system for Air-Rifle (10 mtr) and 22LR (Std/Target) velocity out to, say, 100 mtr?
Stumpy1
Gold $$ Contributor
49'er
Having used Shot Marker and the Silver Mountain G2? and SOLO, I think they are pretty equivalent.
Some features are different, and the interfaces are different. The SOLO is a little more 'off the shelf' using ethernet cables and USB batteries, so those are easily replaceable.
Your best bet is see if you can take a look at both and decide which features or interface you like best.
Performance wise, I see no significant difference.
For sub-sonic, you are looking at the Hexta or other enclosed targets. We use our Hexta targets for 200 yard rimfire with no issues with detection or scoring properly.
Frank
Having used Shot Marker and the Silver Mountain G2? and SOLO, I think they are pretty equivalent.
Some features are different, and the interfaces are different. The SOLO is a little more 'off the shelf' using ethernet cables and USB batteries, so those are easily replaceable.
Your best bet is see if you can take a look at both and decide which features or interface you like best.
Performance wise, I see no significant difference.
For sub-sonic, you are looking at the Hexta or other enclosed targets. We use our Hexta targets for 200 yard rimfire with no issues with detection or scoring properly.
Frank
Our club has SOLO's, most people with their own targets have Shotmarker (Including me).
I much prefer the shotmarker system, audio cables are EASY to replace, they hang nicer, easier to coil up than CAT cables. CAT's connectors are not designed to be taken apart a bunch of times, so think about that over the long term. I prefer the magnetic connection for the sensors on the SM as well.
Both UI's have their advantage, I am more familiar with Shotmarker and prefer it but they both function just fine.
You wont go wrong with either system, but Adam has be EXCELLENT with product support, questions over the years.
I much prefer the shotmarker system, audio cables are EASY to replace, they hang nicer, easier to coil up than CAT cables. CAT's connectors are not designed to be taken apart a bunch of times, so think about that over the long term. I prefer the magnetic connection for the sensors on the SM as well.
Both UI's have their advantage, I am more familiar with Shotmarker and prefer it but they both function just fine.
You wont go wrong with either system, but Adam has be EXCELLENT with product support, questions over the years.
Thanks for the replies.
Given that a significant portion of our target shooting is with sub-sonic projectiles, the most appropriate solution might be something like the HEXTA. Yes, the cost is considerably greater, but, it is a system that can accommodate all projectile velocity ranges.
Given that a significant portion of our target shooting is with sub-sonic projectiles, the most appropriate solution might be something like the HEXTA. Yes, the cost is considerably greater, but, it is a system that can accommodate all projectile velocity ranges.
SSchnd
Silver $$ Contributor
I use my Solo all the time. Like the Shotmarker Screen. But the Cat 5 cables have no issues with usage over and over. When Adam left SM he obviously made changes when he started the SM. Both systems are excellent for what we do. I do not know anyone using subsonic rounds in rifle competition unless their load is anemic past 800 yards. If you're a 3 gunner or rimfire guy, well yes they wont work. Bullet must be sonic to trip the mics. Once you have a personal Etarget no matter which brand you will be happy. Makes practice, shooting past 200 and load testing much more fun and enjoyable.
Reason I asked was because I shoot A LOT of sub-sonic rimfire, as well as centrefire.
That being the case, the HEXTA (type) system will be the most appropriate, albeit somewhat more expensive.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Pretty sure when the ShotMarker came out, Silver Mountain was still using BNC style connectors on their G2 - our club had them. Very positive connection... and damned near impossible to find anyone to repair or to source locally if one got damaged. Off-brand replacement cables frequently had fitment issues, which lead to spotty connection, on top of a dumpster-fire of a UI. Combined with a complete $hit show of documentation for the G2 (only an out-of-date 'quick start' guide, and an even more out-of-date manual - in German), it wasn't hard to figure out why the ShotMarker took off like it did.
While I do agree that 1/8" audio plugs are not ideal for inclement weather, particularly if you have one of the older units (like mine) with the plugs on the sides instead of the bottom... at least if they get damaged they are extremely easy to source replacements for. Maybe not quite as easy as cat 5, which I could make custom lengths for rather than having to coil up extra cable, though.
Our club used the SMT G2 system from 2016-2022, we have recently changed to the SM system. A lot of our shooters (Fclass) prefer the SM System. We called around spoke to several ranges that had SMT and went to SM and they said they were glad they changed. Several of those people post on here from time to time. We tried finding any ranges that went the other way but were unable to. I found it interesting that at the SMT owners home range they use SM targets. There were other reasons also we decided to change but not going to discuss that on a open forum.
The design history of the SMT an SM system is intertwined. SMT G1 was first and later the G2. During this process Adam (fiends with Daniel) helped code and work out problems with the G2s. Adam wanted to produce a cheaper system and SMT didn't want to so he left to do his own thing. While he was starting his own thing SMT was starting work on Solo which was originally designed to be an individual training system, not for match use and then there was also going to be a system in the middle. SM came out to run matches at the same price point at Solo, so Solo had to be pressed into a match system. This is why right when it was being introduced there was confusion on if it could or couldn't be used for matches. The US rep at the time said it couldn't because originally it couldn't, but then it was changed so it could, to compete with SM. The mid level system never came to fruition.
So at its heart SM is SMT with key changes however the SM code was written from scratch so isn't stolen SMT code. If you are familiar with one system you see many/same features in the other they are just in different places in the UI. One of the big differences between the two is how the shots are plotted. SMT has a "learning" feature where it will take the first 5 shots (I believe of the string) to figure out the direction the sonic cone from the shot is coming in and from that it will use that to just the plot of the following rounds. If a round falls outside of the parameters it will flag that as an error be it X/Y plot or side plunge angle. As Adam told me in email ShotMarker measures every shot individually. For better or worse the noise is part of the measurement and all shots are independently calculated. There is still some comparison that cause shots to be flagged/marked as bad but this was based on testing after he left SMT to have SM work differently. As far as how the bad shot shows up on SMT the shot will show up on the screen as normal and you can only tell if its a bad shot if you see the * in the shot list. On the SM system the shot shows but it is grayed out so you see the plot but you visually see it was a bad shot. As a shooter and MD I like this better because the shooter only has to look one place. In both systems cases it will tell you why the shot is considered "bad" and on the SM you can recover it.
As Adam said in Theory the SMT method should be more accurate but it causes several issues which we've noticed and this is just based on observation as a MD and shooter not actual experimentation. During the learning phase if something "masks" or obscures the target from getting crisp readings such as a crossfire, or say someone is shooting something with a weak sonic signal (223 palma gun) next to a Open/Any rifle with a strong sonic crack it can mess up the learning and cause the system to start flagging shots as bad (when they are not) or stop plotting all together. We would experience this I would reset the target, tell the shooter not to adjust anything and break the same shot and it would go from a * bad shot or not shot at all to a nicely marked shot. The based way to explain is the target got messed up during its learning. So by resetting it goes back in the learning phase and shots are plotted again.
The other thing I will say is the only time we fired a match on the solo system I saw shots well outside the frame with the Solo that I didn't see with our 8mic G2 system and that I hadn't seen since we were running the old 5mic G2 system. With that system we plotted a shot at 1k once that was 27moa above the target and like 12moa to the right. The 8 mic didn't see that far around the frame because of the shielding on the sticks, generally 3 moa around the edges was all we got. With the Solo we plotted a shot 8 moa off. Both systems mics will trip with really wide shots but the carbon fiber shielding appears to throw it off enough it won't plot the really wide stuff. With the 5 mic system I could log in to say target 3 and watch shots appear on the other targets on the line (they'd be floating in air) but with the 8 mic system we couldn't do that. Was how we would find lost shots.
Like I said both UI's are the same in what is there just in menus and how to access things SM seems more polished. Some people tend to prefer how SMT shows all the previous shots fired and the velocities. SM will do this and you have to cycle. Me personally while I've shot on only SMT to this point the "score card" in the upper right on SM makes more sense as I don't need to see all the diagnostic stuff while I'm shooting and to be honest becomes distracting as it becomes easy to blame a low/high shot on a velocity than just focusing on shooting.
On SMT targets you can assign the shot delay to only the fclass targets. On Shot Marker you need to have a second access point and the targets on point 1 will have the delay and the targets on point 2 will not. This is not a big deal the only difference is where on SMT you can see all your targets on SM you can only see the targets assigned to that access point. In other words with SM I can't wind dope off Dwayne and Jeff H. if they're shooting on the same relay as me because they are on a different AP where as with SMT I can.
Both systems have pair fire ability Adam just doesn't ship the SM with it but if you ask he sends it. It works well.
With SMT you can make your own targets if you figure out how to edit the target files and then import them in. With SM you can not.
SMT has a shot timer but it is error plagued works good in rapid fire but in slow fire causes some major issues. This was promised to us going on 4 maybe 5 years ago and hasn't worked yet. Adam is not going to do a timer because as he said everyone will want something a little different and just becomes a pain (my para phrasing).
As far as the actual physical systems the 8mic Carbon fiber G2 is definitely the most robust system compared to Solo and SM. However its over the top and there is a lot of cost there that doesn't need to be. The parts when available are also way more expensive to replace. Our state LR match the single SM we ran was up and running well before we had one of our G2s up and running. As far as comparing the Solo and the SM the SM sensors appear more robust they are printed on a 3 printer and just a solid blob and appear to be hard to break. The solo has the two plastic rods holding the far sensor and why it not be it just looks more fragile. The SM uses audio cables the Solo uses ethernet cables. While neither are as robust as the G2 cabling you can go to Walmart and buy replacements. Borden just buys new audio cables every year and hasn't had issues with their cables.
As far as sensor mounting the G2 Carbon fibers use a plastic Gimble mount that to be honest was just a complete pain. We switched those out to magnetic mounts and color coded them (like the SM uses) and that fixed the issues but was something we had to fix. The SM uses color coded magnetic mounts. I've only set up Solo sensors once and I don't remember how they mount but it was better than the factory carbon fiber mount.
The big difference between the two is connectivity, with the SMT system you have the server on the line be it S25 or S7. S25 is the bigger and better of the systems but it relies on wifi and with big lines like at NRA nationals you need repeaters so there is more stuff you need on the line. Even with us running just 14 targets with a S25 we would sometimes have to run our repeater to help the signal strength when we had a lot of shooters. The issue with the S25 is its big and bulky has two small antenna then you have to be careful with. The S7 is more compact same size as the repeater, but while told it is the same as the S25 it just never worked as well and if we had to use it we HAD to use the repeater. With SM it is using Lora which is a stronger signal and you don't experience the issues you do with the SMT at the line. You don't need all the repeaters and the Access point that is on the line is physically smaller. So with the SM there is less stuff you are dragging around on the line.
We never had the battery life with our G2s we were supposed to have, the SM batteries last A LONG time and the same battery is used on the access point. With the S25 and S7 server you need to recharge after a day of shooting. Been told by the people who have used the SMs a lot we won't need to do this. I can't comment on the Solo battery packs per say as to the SM but do know they are better than the G2 batteries.
As far as plotting subsonic shots in the open mic configuration neither SM or SMT will. However the SMT system will plot subsonic shots if you make a wood frame point the sensors to the center and cover the frame with rubber matting. Basically making an enclosed system. I did this test for Daniel and every shot I fired at 25 and 50yd out of my Ruger Pistol with 22LR ammo (not Hi velocity so it was subsonic) tripped all 4 of the sensors (using 4 single old 5 mic sensors) every shot I fired. However the math is not there to plot them as of yet but the system should be able to if it was. SM would be able to do the same as your just turning the systems into closed mic systems like HEXTA and KTS. I'm assuming SMT will release this at sometime possibly and if they do guessing SM would be close to follow if Adam doesn't beat them to it as I told him how it works so he knows the SMT system can. Frame is still sitting in my barn if anyone wants to see it. With the correct math everyone's Solo and SMT would be able to plot subsonic if you put it in a bladder frame. Conversely those systems (Hexta/KTS) if you shoot holes in the baffles accuracy will be affected as they turn into open mic systems.
Hope this helps answer any questions.
The design history of the SMT an SM system is intertwined. SMT G1 was first and later the G2. During this process Adam (fiends with Daniel) helped code and work out problems with the G2s. Adam wanted to produce a cheaper system and SMT didn't want to so he left to do his own thing. While he was starting his own thing SMT was starting work on Solo which was originally designed to be an individual training system, not for match use and then there was also going to be a system in the middle. SM came out to run matches at the same price point at Solo, so Solo had to be pressed into a match system. This is why right when it was being introduced there was confusion on if it could or couldn't be used for matches. The US rep at the time said it couldn't because originally it couldn't, but then it was changed so it could, to compete with SM. The mid level system never came to fruition.
So at its heart SM is SMT with key changes however the SM code was written from scratch so isn't stolen SMT code. If you are familiar with one system you see many/same features in the other they are just in different places in the UI. One of the big differences between the two is how the shots are plotted. SMT has a "learning" feature where it will take the first 5 shots (I believe of the string) to figure out the direction the sonic cone from the shot is coming in and from that it will use that to just the plot of the following rounds. If a round falls outside of the parameters it will flag that as an error be it X/Y plot or side plunge angle. As Adam told me in email ShotMarker measures every shot individually. For better or worse the noise is part of the measurement and all shots are independently calculated. There is still some comparison that cause shots to be flagged/marked as bad but this was based on testing after he left SMT to have SM work differently. As far as how the bad shot shows up on SMT the shot will show up on the screen as normal and you can only tell if its a bad shot if you see the * in the shot list. On the SM system the shot shows but it is grayed out so you see the plot but you visually see it was a bad shot. As a shooter and MD I like this better because the shooter only has to look one place. In both systems cases it will tell you why the shot is considered "bad" and on the SM you can recover it.
As Adam said in Theory the SMT method should be more accurate but it causes several issues which we've noticed and this is just based on observation as a MD and shooter not actual experimentation. During the learning phase if something "masks" or obscures the target from getting crisp readings such as a crossfire, or say someone is shooting something with a weak sonic signal (223 palma gun) next to a Open/Any rifle with a strong sonic crack it can mess up the learning and cause the system to start flagging shots as bad (when they are not) or stop plotting all together. We would experience this I would reset the target, tell the shooter not to adjust anything and break the same shot and it would go from a * bad shot or not shot at all to a nicely marked shot. The based way to explain is the target got messed up during its learning. So by resetting it goes back in the learning phase and shots are plotted again.
The other thing I will say is the only time we fired a match on the solo system I saw shots well outside the frame with the Solo that I didn't see with our 8mic G2 system and that I hadn't seen since we were running the old 5mic G2 system. With that system we plotted a shot at 1k once that was 27moa above the target and like 12moa to the right. The 8 mic didn't see that far around the frame because of the shielding on the sticks, generally 3 moa around the edges was all we got. With the Solo we plotted a shot 8 moa off. Both systems mics will trip with really wide shots but the carbon fiber shielding appears to throw it off enough it won't plot the really wide stuff. With the 5 mic system I could log in to say target 3 and watch shots appear on the other targets on the line (they'd be floating in air) but with the 8 mic system we couldn't do that. Was how we would find lost shots.
Like I said both UI's are the same in what is there just in menus and how to access things SM seems more polished. Some people tend to prefer how SMT shows all the previous shots fired and the velocities. SM will do this and you have to cycle. Me personally while I've shot on only SMT to this point the "score card" in the upper right on SM makes more sense as I don't need to see all the diagnostic stuff while I'm shooting and to be honest becomes distracting as it becomes easy to blame a low/high shot on a velocity than just focusing on shooting.
On SMT targets you can assign the shot delay to only the fclass targets. On Shot Marker you need to have a second access point and the targets on point 1 will have the delay and the targets on point 2 will not. This is not a big deal the only difference is where on SMT you can see all your targets on SM you can only see the targets assigned to that access point. In other words with SM I can't wind dope off Dwayne and Jeff H. if they're shooting on the same relay as me because they are on a different AP where as with SMT I can.
Both systems have pair fire ability Adam just doesn't ship the SM with it but if you ask he sends it. It works well.
With SMT you can make your own targets if you figure out how to edit the target files and then import them in. With SM you can not.
SMT has a shot timer but it is error plagued works good in rapid fire but in slow fire causes some major issues. This was promised to us going on 4 maybe 5 years ago and hasn't worked yet. Adam is not going to do a timer because as he said everyone will want something a little different and just becomes a pain (my para phrasing).
As far as the actual physical systems the 8mic Carbon fiber G2 is definitely the most robust system compared to Solo and SM. However its over the top and there is a lot of cost there that doesn't need to be. The parts when available are also way more expensive to replace. Our state LR match the single SM we ran was up and running well before we had one of our G2s up and running. As far as comparing the Solo and the SM the SM sensors appear more robust they are printed on a 3 printer and just a solid blob and appear to be hard to break. The solo has the two plastic rods holding the far sensor and why it not be it just looks more fragile. The SM uses audio cables the Solo uses ethernet cables. While neither are as robust as the G2 cabling you can go to Walmart and buy replacements. Borden just buys new audio cables every year and hasn't had issues with their cables.
As far as sensor mounting the G2 Carbon fibers use a plastic Gimble mount that to be honest was just a complete pain. We switched those out to magnetic mounts and color coded them (like the SM uses) and that fixed the issues but was something we had to fix. The SM uses color coded magnetic mounts. I've only set up Solo sensors once and I don't remember how they mount but it was better than the factory carbon fiber mount.
The big difference between the two is connectivity, with the SMT system you have the server on the line be it S25 or S7. S25 is the bigger and better of the systems but it relies on wifi and with big lines like at NRA nationals you need repeaters so there is more stuff you need on the line. Even with us running just 14 targets with a S25 we would sometimes have to run our repeater to help the signal strength when we had a lot of shooters. The issue with the S25 is its big and bulky has two small antenna then you have to be careful with. The S7 is more compact same size as the repeater, but while told it is the same as the S25 it just never worked as well and if we had to use it we HAD to use the repeater. With SM it is using Lora which is a stronger signal and you don't experience the issues you do with the SMT at the line. You don't need all the repeaters and the Access point that is on the line is physically smaller. So with the SM there is less stuff you are dragging around on the line.
We never had the battery life with our G2s we were supposed to have, the SM batteries last A LONG time and the same battery is used on the access point. With the S25 and S7 server you need to recharge after a day of shooting. Been told by the people who have used the SMs a lot we won't need to do this. I can't comment on the Solo battery packs per say as to the SM but do know they are better than the G2 batteries.
As far as plotting subsonic shots in the open mic configuration neither SM or SMT will. However the SMT system will plot subsonic shots if you make a wood frame point the sensors to the center and cover the frame with rubber matting. Basically making an enclosed system. I did this test for Daniel and every shot I fired at 25 and 50yd out of my Ruger Pistol with 22LR ammo (not Hi velocity so it was subsonic) tripped all 4 of the sensors (using 4 single old 5 mic sensors) every shot I fired. However the math is not there to plot them as of yet but the system should be able to if it was. SM would be able to do the same as your just turning the systems into closed mic systems like HEXTA and KTS. I'm assuming SMT will release this at sometime possibly and if they do guessing SM would be close to follow if Adam doesn't beat them to it as I told him how it works so he knows the SMT system can. Frame is still sitting in my barn if anyone wants to see it. With the correct math everyone's Solo and SMT would be able to plot subsonic if you put it in a bladder frame. Conversely those systems (Hexta/KTS) if you shoot holes in the baffles accuracy will be affected as they turn into open mic systems.
Hope this helps answer any questions.
Wow, thanks Heman. That is a huge and comprehensive response. Certainly fills in a lot of gaps for my understanding of both systems. I'm sure that a lot of other folks here will appreciate it too.
Also, very interesting what you say about "converting" to an enclosed mic system to plot sub-sonic. Something for me/us to consider.
Thanks again.
Also, very interesting what you say about "converting" to an enclosed mic system to plot sub-sonic. Something for me/us to consider.
Thanks again.
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
I've shot with Ruddy before.
Please note on that I said the math still needs done to plot the shots. Currently the mics will detect the subsonic hits but there is no plotting. I don't know if they ever intend on doing this.
The little robot man will have a pocket full of various cal. Plugs!!!!!
dcali
Bullet Maker
I would pay for an upgrade to the connectors. The audio stuff just doesn't work reliably. I'm not sure what was behind that decision other than cable availability. I have half a mind to open it up and change out the connectors.
Take a look at the spare cables that are listed on the SM website, they have more robust connectors and I have changed out my cables that came with the unit for these and they are much better.
Question
Have you replaced your cables? As I said at Borden (Southern Indiana Club) Lou Casale says they replace their cables annually and have no issues with them.
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