Shot my first load development, results not great

[joshb]

Forget the video Prophet. Go shoot some targets at 100 or 200 and see what they tell you. Also…you did all the good finicky loading and dropped the ball by measuring COAL and not to the ogive? How far off the lands are you?
Me? Measuring velocities with a chrono is the LAST thing I do!

 

[Shooterdevil]

Lots of good info here so far. Definitely learned some things that I did not consider before. Thank you all.

 

[William Vogel]

Lots of good info here so far. Definitely learned some things that I did not consider before. Thank you all.

I’ve got a Christensen Mesa Long Range 26 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I shoot 147 ELD match with hornady brass IMR 4350 42.4 grains with CCI 450 primer seated -0.010 off the lands 2770 fps. Hits 3 inch groups at 700 yards. Mine are past magazine length so I single feed. I find the Hornady ELD bullets like to be close to the lands. I shoot the 75 and 80 grain ELD in .223, the 168 and 178 in .308 and the 147 in 6.5. All like to be within .020 from the lands. I haven’t tried jamming them because I get really good groups already.

 

[K22]

Maybe I am missing something here, probably, after all I am a dinosaur from another age , but are you basing success solely on velocity SD? I mean isn't the idea to find a load that will group well thus group size becomes the determining factor.

Why not shoot a few five shot groups with varying powder charges, in .5 grain increments to determine a bracken for an accurate load. You can further refine powder charges without that bracken if necessary but for that case capacity, generally .5 grain increments should identify a good load.

 

[6Creed73]

First, I'll say I highly doubt it's your barrel as was mentioned earlier. And saying an off the shelf gun won't perform at a high level is nonsense. I have a Tikka T3x Tac and a Custom Shop RPR and both are absolute tac drivers.

Also, it was mentioned a couple of times that you should focus on the group and not the velocity data. I'll say that's only true if you are only shooting 600 yards and in. Once you get to the long distances, you absolutely should focus on the velocity data. For one, you have to know the velocity average for your calculations, and the more accurate your average is, the more accurate your calculations results will be. Second, if you have the best groups in the world, but you have janky ES/SD...that load will not translate at distance. Your spreads have to be tight or you'll be chasing the target all day.

For your load development, if you want to be consistent, get a comparator and a Hornady O.A.L tool if you don't already have them. Forget about COAL, bullets have too much length variation for that. You really need to be able to measure to the lands. Knowing how far you are to the lands will allow you to do valid seating depth ladders, which is where you can tighten up your groups once you have a good ES/SD load to work with.

As for factory rifles, this is from my Custom Shop RPR while I was developing a load a couple weeks ago. This load has an ES of 9 and SD of 3....they're just fine. The ES/SD is only from a 5 shot group, but my experience tells me when I do a 10-20 shot string, the ES/SD will be very close. I have them loaded up and plan on getting more data next week.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I’ve got a Christensen Mesa Long Range 26 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I shoot 147 ELD match with hornady brass IMR 4350 42.4 grains with CCI 450 primer seated -0.010 off the lands 2770 fps. Hits 3 inch groups at 700 yards. Mine are past magazine length so I single feed. I find the Hornady ELD bullets like to be close to the lands. I shoot the 75 and 80 grain ELD in .223, the 168 and 178 in .308 and the 147 in 6.5. All like to be within .020 from the lands. I haven’t tried jamming them because I get really good groups already.

Is that really 2770 on the speed?

 

[Webster]

I am new to reloading for precision rifle. The rifle is a ruger precision rifle in 6.5CM. I watched a bunch of ultimate reloader's videos on load development and followed it to the best as I could and my numbers weren't that good. Is there something I'm not taking into consideration that can lead to these results?

CCI400 SRP
Lapua new brass fully resized for consistency. Case length was very consistent at 1.91" within .0005" of each other
Neck measurements after FL size were super consistent and virtually all measured .2625"
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
H4350 charges from 39.9gr to 41.7gr in .2 increments (10 different charges). Five of each charge was loaded for a total of 50 rounds (5 in 39.9, 5 in 40.1...and so on). Charges were done meticulously with a beam scale down to the individual granule.
COAL: 2.82" (I know that is not the best measurement from base to tip but I did not take any ogive measurements for this batch, definitely next time)

Here were the results (I will spare the individual velocities, just the important numbers). Any thoughts or suggestions to check that I may have overlooked or haven't considered?

For clarification these readings were taken at an indoor range shooting into the backstop and not a target so I don't have grouping results.

Charge - Avg(fps) - SD
39.9 - 2565.2 - 9
40.1 - 2572.2 - 15
40.3 - 2595.4 - 15
40.5 - 2598.2 - 22
40.7 - 2619.0 - 11
40.9 - 2630.8 - 15
41.1 - 2629.6 - 10
41.3 - 2646.8 - 23
41.5 - 2679.6 - 18
41.7 - 2673.0 - 12

The numbers are meaningless without group size. The SD or ES mean nothing unless you shooting very long distance. You can shoot small groups with an ES of 10-20. It's a factory gun not a serious BR rifle.

 

[William Vogel]

Is that really 2770 on the speed?

Yes

 

[DLT]

Yep, and Gavin uses top quality stuff with every gun he builds.

If you had the green backs like he has you would too lol.

 

[6MMsteve]

I don't even chrono anymore myself I expect a barrel to shoot .3 or better .1's I'm a happy camper, it don't always happen but I don't have the money to buy 5 or 10 barrels a yr. just try to buy good barrels and hope they make me smile...I have 260AI I have shot 40x Bartlein 8tw first group was .5 second group was .237 then I shot 30 shots into .356 I was happy

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Yes

That’s good info then. I didn’t know if you would have to go to something like RL26 to get that speed out of the Creedmoor.

 

[RegionRat]

Rather than tell you small sample velocity stats are very low value and that "flat spots" in speed ladders disappear when enough shots are poured into each step.... I'll say instead that the best advice I can give you is to run the next tests as either of two styles, both of which prioritize the target data (and neither one requires the chronograph till later if at all).

One (Audette Method) would be to use a common single aim point at a distance down the trajectory where the shot fall will spread or cluster (for example, say 600 yards). The second style (OCW Method) would be where you shoot at an aim point per charge step at shorter range, and see where the group centroid shift is stable.

Audette Method
The goal of the fist test method is to identify steps where the shot fall forms a node for at least several charge steps before it continues to shift. This method was named the Audette Method, although it existed long before he used it. The method uses 15 to 20 fine charge steps to sweep through the whole speed range.

The target interpretation is based on the vertical position of the shot fall. You are looking for steps where the shots cluster versus spread vertically. Those vertical clusters are the potential nodes in this method.

A single wide sweep is usually enough for the first run. Then the next test runs can eliminate the charges that the user feels are too slow or too fast if they wish. More step samples can be run to straddle the more promising nodes. When the best node or nodes are identified, then follow up tests for confidence and seating depth can be run to fine tune the group.

OCW Method
The goal of the second method is to find where the group centroid shift is stable for several steps. This method has been called the OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) method and is often shot in round-robin to distribute the heating and fouling effects. This method can be shot close or far, as long at the group centroid can be plotted when it is all over.

The Round-Robin shooting requires more shooting skill and stamina than just shooting all shots per charge at their aim point in a group before moving to the next charge step.

The target interpretation is based on the centroid shift of the group, not the group diameter. Follow up tests pour more samples into the promising nodes and can be followed up for confidence and or seating depth for fine tuning.

In the OCW test, don't get distracted too early with group size. Really bad ones can be called bad soon enough, but the focus is on centroid shift stability.

In all group shooting, similar to the speed stats, the extreme spread can vary by a factor of two between two small sample groups. Try not to get thrown by very small groups or ones that are double. You can punt with a test or recipe if you see a group that is too big for your taste, but don't stop working just because you see a small one.

While there is nothing wrong with running the chronograph data in parallel with these two methods, don't get distracted with the speed data too soon.

If the chronograph doesn't touch the barrel, it doesn't harm anything to take the data but you won't use the majority of the data until you dedicate to the node. You can expect it to take up to 15 to 30 or more shots to see the velocity ES/SD stats settle with any repeatability, but you can get a reasonable average with fewer samples.

Short range or long range makes no difference in terms of the prioritization of the target over the chronograph. By definition, if the long range groups are good, then so are the speed stats, but not the other way around. It is cold comfort to have great speed stats sitting on a scatter node.

Good Luck and have fun!

 

[Ned Ludd]

As much as can be told without groups on target, I would say from looking at the numbers that your velocity data are just fine. Chasing flat spots and/or sub-10 fps SDs are likely just going to burn out your barrel; possibly with very little to show for it. Select a charge weight from your testing results, tune the grouping, and you should end up something that shoots very well. If you need to test a bit higher in terms of charge weight/velocity, so be it. Just don't get hung up on chasing sub-10 fps SDs, you won't like where that takes you.

 

[mfendley]

I am new to reloading for precision rifle. The rifle is a ruger precision rifle in 6.5CM. I watched a bunch of ultimate reloader's videos on load development and followed it to the best as I could and my numbers weren't that good. Is there something I'm not taking into consideration that can lead to these results?

CCI400 SRP
Lapua new brass fully resized for consistency. Case length was very consistent at 1.91" within .0005" of each other
Neck measurements after FL size were super consistent and virtually all measured .2625"
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
H4350 charges from 39.9gr to 41.7gr in .2 increments (10 different charges). Five of each charge was loaded for a total of 50 rounds (5 in 39.9, 5 in 40.1...and so on). Charges were done meticulously with a beam scale down to the individual granule.
COAL: 2.82" (I know that is not the best measurement from base to tip but I did not take any ogive measurements for this batch, definitely next time)

Here were the results (I will spare the individual velocities, just the important numbers). Any thoughts or suggestions to check that I may have overlooked or haven't considered?

For clarification these readings were taken at an indoor range shooting into the backstop and not a target so I don't have grouping results.

Charge - Avg(fps) - SD
39.9 - 2565.2 - 9
40.1 - 2572.2 - 15
40.3 - 2595.4 - 15
40.5 - 2598.2 - 22
40.7 - 2619.0 - 11
40.9 - 2630.8 - 15
41.1 - 2629.6 - 10
41.3 - 2646.8 - 23
41.5 - 2679.6 - 18
41.7 - 2673.0 - 12

Two thoughts.

First, I've noticed it takes a lot more effort to seat a bullet into virgin brass than into once fired brass. I've stopped cleaning with SS pins and only tumble in rice now. Your SDs will likely improve once the cases get to be 2X and 3X.

Second, I would keep going with your powder load. I'm shooting the same Lapua brass but with the large primers, H4350, and the 140 gr ELDM, and my charge 41.9.

Like was mentioned above, you can't duplicate results out of 2 different rifles, but you can get 2800 fps with H4350 and the components you already have.

Go slow, look for pressure signs, and don't get too wrapped up in the SD/ES. Concentrate on repeatability and the group size.

 

[William Vogel]

That’s good info then. I didn’t know if you would have to go to something like RL26 to get that speed out of the Creedmoor.

The freebore in my 6.5 rifle is lengthened .050 from the SAAMI chamber dimension. This allows me to set the bullet out of the case .050 more and may allow just a touch more velocity before pressure signs but I can’t confirm because I switched powder after the chamber modification. I was getting the same velocity with Win. Staball 6.5 43.5 grains but getting slight ejector marks before the powder switch.
I’m in South Georgia and I try to shoot before it gets 90+ degrees lately but it’s still hot when I’m shootings. Later this year I think I’ll loose a little velocity as the temperature drops.

 

[big5ifty]

Normally, the first check for reloads is the velocity, but for safety reasons, not ES. We first want to know that the load is safe.

Velocities on their own are not going to tell you how the rifle shoots at the distance you want to shoot it - reloading is never a theoretical exercise.

OCW method, then fine tune.

If you're still learning to shoot, stick with factory ammo until your group sizes are small and repeatable. Factory ammo is generally excellent quality and shoots well enough to hone your skill.

Chicken before the egg scenario. You won't get meaningful results from the OCW or any other test otherwise.

 

[David Milisock]

I don't even chrono anymore myself I expect a barrel to shoot .3 or better .1's I'm a happy camper, it don't always happen but I don't have the money to buy 5 or 10 barrels a yr. just try to buy good barrels and hope they make me smile...I have 260AI I have shot 40x Bartlein 8tw first group was .5 second group was .237 then I shot 30 shots into .356 I was happy

I only chronograph for minimum and maximum testing, once I'm in the groove I shoot and load for group.

 

[Chilly807]

As 6creed73 said, if you're shooting longer ranges, velocity spread needs to be half decent or you'll have low and high shots that cost you points.
When I say long range, I'm talking 800m for example. 300-500 won't be as much of a problem. SD under 10 is good, 15 is marginal, 20+ and you're going to have issues at long range. At least that's been my experience, everyone's mileage can vary.

One thing a couple of the guys touched on was virgin brass. They're right, things often improve after a couple of firings as the brass grows to fit the chamber better. I'd repeat your test and see what happens.

The barrel will also get faster as it breaks in, usually gaining 50-100 fps by the time you get 500 rounds through it.

My 6.5 CM match load is H4350 under a 139 Lapua Scenar, seated 15 thou off the lands. Federal 205 Match primers.
SD is normally under 10 fps in all seasons except winter with Lapua small primer brass. It's not a hot load by any stretch, but it works well for me out of a factory Savage 10 with 24 inch barrel.

In cold weather, I switch to large rifle primed Hornady brass for better ignition. Any shooting I do in the winter months isn't match conditions, more for practice, so the Hornady brass is good enough for that. The load is different too, N150 and 123 gr Sierras.

If you are still having trouble getting the SD and ES you want, try shooting the load you settle on at long range and see what happens. It may be better than you think.

 

[Ccrider]

I agree, but I'd like to get it down to sub 10

Why? There is absolutely nothing that says that below ten is going to be even close to in tune.

 

[6MMsteve]

What is your reloading Technique, dies, cleaning, lubrication, shoulder bump, trim, chamfering, flashhole deburr, seating consistency