Short action thumpers?

[Adam in WI]

More idle daydreaming on my part I'm sure, but anyway... I have a beautiful Model 70 270 WSM. It was an anniversary gift, and a wonderful one. However, it gets very little love. The chambering has a lot of overlap with other favorites so it seems to sit a lot. I thought one way of getting it used more would be to rebarrel it to something that has a little more pizzazz. But what would fit? I like the idea of versatile rounds like .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen that can be loaded light with cheap .357 bullets for light load fun... Anyone done a .35 Sambar? Only issue I see there is brass forming, and expense, and light load-ability with ~70 grains capacity.

I would eventually like to get a suppressor. Not sure how many good options there are in .35 caliber. Which leads me to the .458 x 2" American. I've been wondering how this would shake out with a ~18" barrel, suppressed. Shoot 300 grain bullets at hot 45-70 speeds for deer, cheap cast bullets for fun, or maybe heavy subs? Brass should be fairly easy being able to hack off most belted mag brass. Does anyone have experience with this cartridge or the .358 WSM?

 

[Kurz]

458x2

Cartridges of the World, revised third edition by Frank Barnes

250 gr gas check 31/4198 mv 1828

300 Barns SP 55/4198 2412

350 Hornady SP 52/4198 2260
405 Winchester factory bullet 59/4895 1949
405 Winchester 49/4198 2067

24 inch barrel Winchester cases.

This cartridge was introduced by Frank C. Barns in 1962, and it is quite similar to the .450 Marlin except the belt on the Marlin round is wider.

.450 Marlin:

https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/450Marlin.pdf

https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/450-marlin/

Barnes 300gr TTSX

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

338 WSM, 416 WSM, 458 WSM, 375 WSM, 358 Sambar (WSM) are all good cartridges based on the WSM case. I've had both the 375 WSM and the 458 WSM personally. Liked both of them, just got rid of them because of shoulder surgery..............then found out I could've kept them. My shoulder surgeries came out fantastic.

At the other end 6mm SAUM, 257 WSM are a couple favorites of mine too. Still have those.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I don't have any experience with any of the mag bolt face, short action, large bore cartridges, but I do have experience with large bore suppressors.

In my experience, if you are going over .338, then the Dead Air Primal is your best option, it is a .46 bore, but it suppresses .358s really well too. A tad overweight at just under 17 ounces, but that is what you are going to get with a large bore suppressor regardless.
If you stay at .338, then my recommendation is the Griffin Sportsman Ultralight .338 it suppresses very well and at just under 13 oz, it is a good carrying can. A good thing about this one is that it also suppresses .30 calibers very well, so you can use it on other rifles. The Primal is a .35-45 caliber suppressor so really just the big bores.

 

[matthias]

I love my 458x2 really simple and feeds well. 1-14 twist is enough for sub sonic 500gr. Brass last forever and can be made from any of the belted mag cases.

 

[Adam in WI]

I love my 458x2 really simple and feeds well. 1-14 twist is enough for sub sonic 500gr. Brass last forever and can be made from any of the belted mag cases.

I read elsewhere that some cases needed to be inside reamed because of case thickness in certain brass. Has this not been your experience?

 

[bobinpa]

More idle daydreaming on my part I'm sure, but anyway... I have a beautiful Model 70 270 WSM. It was an anniversary gift, and a wonderful one. However, it gets very little love. The chambering has a lot of overlap with other favorites so it seems to sit a lot. I thought one way of getting it used more would be to rebarrel it to something that has a little more pizzazz. But what would fit? I like the idea of versatile rounds like .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen that can be loaded light with cheap .357 bullets for light load fun... Anyone done a .35 Sambar? Only issue I see there is brass forming, and expense, and light load-ability with ~70 grains capacity.

I would eventually like to get a suppressor. Not sure how many good options there are in .35 caliber. Which leads me to the .458 x 2" American. I've been wondering how this would shake out with a ~18" barrel, suppressed. Shoot 300 grain bullets at hot 45-70 speeds for deer, cheap cast bullets for fun, or maybe heavy subs? Brass should be fairly easy being able to hack off most belted mag brass. Does anyone have experience with this cartridge or the .358 WSM?

A couple of years ago I had a 358 WSM built. It is devastating on game but when you look at the ballistics, it drops off fast after 500 yards. I built mine on a Win 70 stainless classic. I used a 270 WSM as the donor. I had the action trued and used a Lilja 1/12 twist barrel and put it in a Super Grade stock. I wanted to use 225 gr Nosler Accubonds but when I seated them far enough out of the case to maximize case capacity, they were too long for the mag box. I switched to 225 gr Sierra Game Kings. They shoot great and kill good too. Truly an impressive bullet! I am running them right at 2840 fps. It'll go faster but I was giving up accuracy so I stayed with 2840. I also have a 338 WSM that goes a touch faster with 215gr Game Kings but I haven't finished load development yet. On paper the ballistics look like it will be a better choice beyond 500 yards.

Bob

 

[matthias]

I read elsewhere that some cases needed to be inside reamed because of case thickness in certain brass. Has this not been your experience?

So far I have had no issues yet....

I cut down about 200 cases rem, win, hornady.
Hornady has given me issues with hard extraction on published loads. I suspect it is softer?

Other than that it is a cut and load type thing. I have shot everything from 300 barnes , to 500 laser cast. If you want a bolt action thumper I can not recommend it high enough. My 458 win mag is being neglected due to the 458x2 being enough power and way more plesant.

 

[Adam in WI]

Is there an easy source for dies? Or are they going to get expensive?

 

[matthias]

So here is what I have done. It may ir may not work for you.

I have been using 450 marlin dies. Only difference I can find is the 450 has a thicker belt. So size like normal and the only part that isn't sized on the 458x2 is just above the belt. Cheap and easy. I'm not hotrodding , but the loads are no slouch either.

 

[Adam in WI]

This is sounding very interesting. I'm wondering how this would look with a stainless barrel on the high gloss Super Grade receiver. Or if someone could do a high gloss fluted blue to match the factory finish... The daydreaming is getting stronger

 

[Adam in WI]

I have been using 450 marlin dies.

Nother question... The 450 is technically 2.1" correct? So are you not crimping at all? Wouldn't the the 458x2 require .100" turned off of the bottom of the seating die to enable crimping?

 

[Bill K]

Lok into the 375 or 416 Rugers, for short thumpers. But no real light bullet for either.

 

[rockhound78]

Why not the 350 Rem Mag? Make cases from 338wm if needed and you can use 357mag pistol bullets for plinking.

 

[Adam in WI]

Why not the 350 Rem Mag? Make cases from 338wm if needed and you can use 357mag pistol bullets for plinking.

That thought crossed my mind as well. Is it a simple run thru and trim, or is the forming more involved than that? Would any belted mag brass work?

 

[matthias]

Nother question... The 450 is technically 2.1" correct? So are you not crimping at all? Wouldn't the the 458x2 require .100" turned off of the bottom of the seating die to enable crimping?

You got me on that one. I had to go look. The die set is 3 pc. There is a taper crimp die included in the set.

So when bullets are seated no crimp then on to the third die where a taper crimp is applied. I would be careful if you don't crimp. I would think bullet movement due to recoil is very possible.

 

[46and2]

Does anyone have experience with this cartridge or the .358 WSM?

I built a 358 Grant for Indiana public land hunting. Its 300wsm shortened to 1.8" .
I'm loading 180gr ttsx with Benchmark at 3020fps on a 24" 12 twist Douglass.

Way too accurate for a hunting rifle.
Had the barrel nitrided.

 

[Treerat-sniper]

I put together a .358 Win on a Savage 16 a couple of years ago for IA deer season (we can now use bottleneck cases .35 & larger). I got covid during deer season in 2021 & flu this past deer season....so it hasn't made any meat yet. Great shooter though, smacks my 300 yd gong with authority.

 

[Lopili]

Is there an easy source for dies? Or are they going to get expensive?

How good is your gunsmith? I've had mine make both 22/204 and 358RUM from Lee dies opened up. Take the parent die, soften, open the neck, reharden ... salvage the appropriate innards from another die set.

With the 450Marlin idea, maybe see if a reamer can be held back a poofteenth so that the headspace occurs off the regular H&H width belt rather than the wider 450Marlin belt. You should then be able to utilise 450Marlin dies, but also make brass from any H&H based case.
Cheers...

 

[Adam in WI]

With the 450Marlin idea, maybe see if a reamer can be held back a poofteenth so that the headspace occurs off the regular H&H width belt rather than the wider 450Marlin belt. You should then be able to utilise 450Marlin dies, but also make brass from any H&H based case.
Cheers...

That sounds easy enough, no? Isn't there a standard set of go/no-go gauges when chambering belted mag barrels? A 450 Marlin reamer should be easier to get than 458x2. It would probably wind up being more like a 458x2.030 done this way.