Shooting over Wind Flags ?

[queen_stick]

For those that do this...

I have a question about waiting on a condition to return after you've begun a string.

An example situation:
I'm doing load development at 100yds, over my Mike Ezell wind flags (which I like very much, btw). I'm shooting 5-shot groups, and have already fired the first 3 into what's hopefully not a shotgun pattern. Now the condition changes as I'm chambering the 4th round, so I wait.... My initial condition comes back about a minute later, but my fourth round has been cooking in the chamber. Take the fourth shot, load the 5th, and now have to wait 2 minutes for the initial condition to return again. I think you can see where I'm going with this...

In 'switching conditions' each round could "cook" in the chamber for variable amounts of time, and increased heat, as you get towards the end of the string.

To try to avoid above scenario, I've tried leaving the cartridge on the ramp (bolt open), then close it when the condition returns. However, this disturbs the gun in the bags, and sometimes I lose the condition before I get everything reset. This either leaves me back in the scenario described above, or I end up rushing the shot by 'pushing' the gun onto target while my condition is present (leads to inconsistent hold).

The problem with all of this, in load development especially, is that I don't know what caused my shotgun pattern (instead of a group) or a flier. Was it the load, cooking the round, missed change in condition, gun handling due to trying to rush a shot in a specific condition, etc...

Do I need to learn to shoot THROUGH the conditions, instead of waiting for the initial condition to return?

How do you guys work around this?

As always, any advice is much appreciated,

Walt

 

[INShooter]

You have listed several of the dilemmas facing group shooters. I have always found my better groups are when I am able to hold for the change in the condition and continue the group, except for a complete reversal.
I have found it amazing how a well tuned, good shooting rifle can take many of these issues out of the equation.

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks for the replies.

INShooter,
Apparently I don't have one those unicorns you call a finely tuned rifle
I know I can improve my bench manners, and I'm working on that as well.


Boyd,
Based on our previous discussions, I've been testing loads with 3 rounds (pull the 3rd if the first 2 are junk). When I find something that looks good, I go to 5 to confirm it. Maybe I'll stop jumping up to 5 (in load development), and just shoot more 3-shot groups for confirmation... I like that idea!

Thought about going to a sighter to determine hold-off, but in load development the POI on the sighter might not be entirely due to the condition. That's my thought anyway, and the primary reason I haven't done it. I've been playing with a couple of different powders as well, hoping to find one with a nice 'range' to mitigate temp issues. I'm a little limited in powder choice, as I'm shooting long range BR in 6mm, and need to keep velocity up with 100+ grainers.

 

[artbosco]

Shoot faster while your preferred condition exists, dump the round if held for more than 45 seconds, learn to work through changing conditions and give yourself no more than 7 minutes for the entire group.

No one said this was easy. Practice, practice, practice, and more practice the way you will compete. Learning to judge your hold off in a switch is challenging especially when you get it within your last minute or 30 seconds and you haven't finished your record target. Welcome to the game.

P.S. Speedy Gonzalez didn't get his name for being slow and Lester Bruno I've been told shoots more sighters than one would expect for the #2 guy in the Hall of Fame points list.

 

[INShooter]

queen_stick
Outdoorsman nailed it. PRACTICE!
Continue to shoot over flags and you will become more familiar with the effect of various conditions. You may find that it is not the rifle tune but instead the round is just following the condition.

 

[Jefferson]

you can also do this when leaving a round ready for the condition to come back


1. once you chamber the 4th round then cycle the gun in the backs back and forth a few times that should settle the gun down again


(note that does not remove the first shot h8igh variable when using bags)

Jefferson

 

[LHSmith]

For those that do this...



The problem with all of this, in load development especially, is that I don't know what caused my shotgun pattern (instead of a group) or a flier. Was it the load, cooking the round, missed change in condition, gun handling due to trying to rush a shot in a specific condition, etc...

Do I need to learn to shoot THROUGH the conditions, instead of waiting for the initial condition to return?

How do you guys work around this?

As always, any advice is much appreciated,

Walt

To get truthful results from your targets- Eliminate as many variables as possible. The following YOU have CONTROL over:
1/ Don't let a round in the chamber after having fired a shot. It WILL affect POI
2/ Don't rush the shot...of course, good, consistent bench manners come from a lot of trigger time, but you must hold the gun and squeeze the trigger exactly the same way each time. Note each shot that didn't feel right and identify it on your target.

You have no control over conditions, but learn to call your shot if a change in condition occurs...and reconcile what you anticipated would happen vs. actual POI, and note this on your target. Eventually, if you shoot enough you will learn how to hold off for conditions.

 

[mysticplayer]

If the rifle has only digested less then 5 rds when you "stop", don't worry about it.

You are no where near hot.

I compete in F class and with unlimited sighters, barrels get very very hot. yes, we will pull a rd that has been left for a bit but that is with a barrel seeing upwards of 20rds in string fire.

If I extract it, there is a colour change on the bullet itself... kind of like annealing rainbow... things be pretty darn HOT.

The barrel doesn't even start to get warm over the first 5.

If you have chambered and commited to that shot, see the condition change, hold off or not. If not, the bullet will fly down wind proportional to the wind increase.

At 100yds and most anything we want to shoot, you are looking at maybe a 1/4" drift for a sizeable pick up.

If you are grouping in general, over MOA with a rifle capable of shooting well under, focus on learning to drive the rifle and not too much about the load. When you are capable of shooting itty bitty groups, the rifle will surprisingly shoot alot better and be easier to tune.

With any new barrel, I shoot for consistency before worrying about tuning. I establish a baseline... some rifles don't shoot and you may as well find out ASAP.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[Blaster-37]

I love shooting the wind as a picker for most of my life so I will throw my opinion, two cents, in.
There are many books on this subject. Basically, get a good tune going for your barrel. Learn what the conditions will do to your load and distance. That's easy with range time.
The biggest mistake most shooters make is not remembering the condition they zeroed for by spinning their turrets. The change for a new condition is calculated from the the previous setting unless you keep your scope on a dead wind zero and hold for each condition as they occur. This is the best way to learn your rifle. Do this at least at first or it will get overwhelming.
Recognizing a condition change can be hard especially multiple changing conditions at long range. It's not as hard as most shooters make it. Recognizing a condition change at 1000, calling it right, holding for it and sending a shot to dead center is very rewarding. This is true rifle shooting.
For benchrest you choose. You are a runner or a picker. A few are skilled at both. Runners, those that shoot as fast as they can hoping for the conditions to hold, win more with conditions that will hold while they machine gun their ammo. As a "picker" it is satisfying to catch the change and hold for it ending with a perfect score. Picking is much harder as we often miss a minor change.
For most of the other rifle disciplines, we need to be able to recognize and hold for the conditions or get your "hat" handed to you by those who can with a "thanx for donating" smile.
For some this "hat" means their life. For others it means lost meat. If your are going to shoot it, it helps to learn how.
Shoot well and enjoy the fruits of your efforts.
greg

 

[queen_stick]

I have some good stuff to work with here!
Thanks for the advice fella's!

The change for a new condition is calculated from the the previous setting unless you keep your scope on a dead wind zero and hold for each condition as they occur. This is the best way to learn your rifle. Do this at least at first or it will get overwhelming.

greg

Greg,
I usually spin the turrets during fowling shots to get zeroed for the session, then don't mess with them much for the remainder of the session. Is that about how you would do it?


I know practice is the best way to improve, and I don't get as much time at the range as I would like/need. Since my practice time is limited, I try to make the most of it by *not* reinventing the wheel. That's what it feels like I've been doing lately, hence the reason for this post/thread

 

[Blaster-37]

I have some good stuff to work with here!
Thanks for the advice fella's!

The change for a new condition is calculated from the the previous setting unless you keep your scope on a dead wind zero and hold for each condition as they occur. This is the best way to learn your rifle. Do this at least at first or it will get overwhelming.

greg

Greg,
I usually spin the turrets during fowling shots to get zeroed for the session, then don't mess with them much for the remainder of the session. Is that about how you would do it?


I know practice is the best way to improve, and I don't get as much time at the range as I would like/need. Since my practice time is limited, I try to make the most of it by *not* reinventing the wheel. That's what it feels like I've been doing lately, hence the reason for this post/thread

Yes, most do it like that. The trick is to remember the condition you dialed to like 3 mph at 7 o'clock. Then be able to calculate the difference when it changes and hold that much. Sometimes I have to do this for a relay, if I forget the centered up condition i'm screwed when it changes.
greg

 

[Greyfox]

Something comes to mind here. You are mixing three entirely different things, load developement, gun handling/practice and wind reading. It's difficult at best to do all three at the same time. You mentioned in passing that you don't have a rifle that's as accurate as you'd like. It's tough to learn precision shooting and wind reading if you don't have an accurate rifle. You might consider Tony Boyer's procedure for tuning a rifle which involves holding at the same POI and not changing hold for changing conditions. This will tell you something about your load's capabilities and won't involve your gun handling or your wind reading skills. It will also give you a better idea of what the wind is doing to your bullet.

Hope this makes sense,
Rick

 

[Blaster-37]

I don't know anybody that works the wind as much when tuning a barrel, if possible. Doing it first thing at daybreak works for me. I personally don't pay as much attention to horizontal if the air is moving. I can feel a slight wind in my face or rear that can affect vertical to some degree and work with that. I can judge my groups a little better. It's important to have the rest of your system doing well including your loading bench.
I have met Tony, he is a great shooter, a good author and a very smart guy.
I did not think this thread was about tuning a barrel in the wind. I'm not good enough for that, is anybody?
Everybody has there own system for shooting wind.
greg

 

[Greyfox]

I don't know anybody that works the wind as much when tuning a barrel, if possible. Doing it first thing at daybreak works for me. I personally don't pay as much attention to horizontal if the air is moving. I can feel a slight wind in my face or rear that can affect vertical to some degree and work with that. I can judge my groups a little better. It's important to have the rest of your system doing well including your loading bench.
I have met Tony, he is a great shooter, a good author and a very smart guy.
I did not think this thread was about tuning a barrel in the wind. I'm not good enough for that, is anybody?
Everybody has there own system for shooting wind.
greg

I guess I did a poor job of explaining what I was talking about. The OP appeared to me to be trying to do exactly that, tuning in the wind. If you have the skills it's doable, but difficult for most of us. It's easier for most of us to do one thing at a time.

Rick

 

[queen_stick]

Greyfox,

All 3 things are always in play, so how can you practice one without the others having affect on your results? I guess the answer to that is to shoot on calm days only (few and far between).

 

[Greyfox]

Greyfox,

All 3 things are always in play, so how can you practice one without the others having affect on your results? I guess the answer to that is to shoot on calm days only (few and far between).

OK,
I'll try and be clearer with what I'm trying to say. Disagreements are fine, I'm not an authority on this.
In the 1st place, 5 shots groups while trying to develop loads is a waste of powder, primers, bullets, barrel life and time. This has been said here many times before. A 3 shot group will tell you what you need to know about the load, the rest is gun handling and wind reading.

I'll freely admit I'm not as good at this next point as I'd like to be, but I think I understand the principle.
Tony B says he never shoots in calm conditions because it doesn't tell you want the wind will do with your bullet/load. When developing loads he doesn't hold for the wind but rather observes the conditions and notes how much the bullet moves relative to the amount of wind. This makes perfect sense to me as most matches are not shot in calm conditions. A finely tuned accurate rifle will shoot through some conditions without a change in hold. Also, a rifle in tune will do what is expected according to wind charts. A rifle out of tune will not.

If you are holding for wind you are working on wind reading at the same time you're trying to determine what the rifle is telling you. If you aren't very good at wind reading you don't know what the rifle is telling you.

If you don't have a very accurate rifle you're probably spinning your wheels anyway. You can't learn good wind reading or determine accurate loads if you don't have an accurate rifle. IOW-if your rifle is only capable of 1/2" or 3/4" groups, you're not going to make it shoot in the .1s no matter how good your wind reading skills may be. You won't learn to read the wind well enough to win matches until you have an accurate rifle. That may sound hard, but that's the way it is.

Rick

 

[LHSmith]

Greyfox has nailed it pretty well. The OP's question was difficult for me to answer also. We don't know the equipment involved ( rifle, optics, and rest), nor the OP's abilities behind a gun (although I had thought the OP had delved in competiton before). If you give advice to a non-competitor, you stand a good chance of giving Shooting Skills 301 advice where lession 101 would be more beneficial. I'm sure there's a couple readers scratching heads over the ability to shoot through some conditions w/o a change in hold. For those I suggest TB's book.

 

[queen_stick]

Greyfox,
Thank you very much for taking the time to post. Your latest response is exactly what I was looking for! The light just came on for me

LHSmith (and everyone else),

I'm now seeing that it wasn't fair to expect appropriate responses without some detail on my end. You guys answered my questions pretty darn well regardless.

I shoot in 1k BR, but the only time I can shoot that distance is at a match. Therefore, my practice is at my local range that 100, 200, and 300. My intent, is to employ short-range BR techniques/skills so that I can dial in a long range load at short range. If I'm getting unexplainable fliers, or sub-par groups at 100 yards, then it certainly won't work at long range. The problem I'm running into, is isolating what causes a flier, or a group that's simply too large. I know my skill needs improving, but when I'm not certain the root cause of an issue, it's difficult to attempt a fix.

With that said, you guys have given me enough information, that I now know I need to change what I'm doing.

Now I just need to find a way to dedicate more time to burning powder!