and they should be sturdy enough not to wiggle around,
so many folks cheap out with the stands or the pins that hold the flags on and wonder why the flags lie
Jeffy
Wind flags
- Thread starter Trophy 2000
- Start date
and they should be sturdy enough not to wiggle around,
so many folks cheap out with the stands or the pins that hold the flags on and wonder why the flags lie
Jeffy
Technically speaking, what makes a stable flag is that the center of pressure be behind the center of gravity. How you achieve that, isn't important. That said, a daisy style flag doesn't work quite like a ball style. Reason being, relates to my first sentence. As wind speed increases, so does drag. There's a lot more area on a daisy than on a ball. If that area, and that of the vane are equal AND the flag is statically balanced 50/50, the flag can't physically be stable..there's nothing to tell it which way to turn, period. Drag is what makes them turn. Equal drag and equal balance, equals instability. Add to that, as wind speed increases, so does drag. If the front has more "drag" than the rear without moving the pivot point to leverage the tail to be dominant, it'll turn around backwards.
What this means is that balancing a flag statically, in your house for example, is not like being balanced dynamically...like in use. One way to counter this is to make the vane big and heavy, so that it adds enough area to overcome the front to rear drag ratio. This is a wasteful and is a poorly thought out design, in terms of what make any flag work.
Since drag increases with wind speed, you're chasing a moving target in terms of the "ideal" balance point. This importance of this ideal balance point becomes more and more critical as the flag gets heavier and with pin diameter due to side load and resultant friction. More weight and more contact area, particularly on the side of the pin is bad....less is good here. Many makers add weight in the form of big nut to hold the daisy on the front or even a lead, steel or brass weights forward of the pivot point to mask this deficiency of their design. Ask yourself how adding weight to a wind flag can be a good thing unless it's there to mask a design problem.
ANY Flag can only tell you what has already happened. A lighter, more sensitive flag is simply closer to real time.
I've mentioned this before but will again...I'm very fortunate to have a good friend who is an aeronautical engineer who helped me to design my flags. We, the shooting community are benefiting from his knowledge being passed on to me and my flag design. Using any part of a flag, such as the tail, in making a flag that follows the laws of physics most efficiently, is exactly what we should be doing. There's no such thing as a flag that is too sensitive or too light. With proper engineering and pivot point placement, a feather can be stable in wind. There are a few flags that I've seen work well made of laminated construction paper. There are obvious reasons that I consider this less than ideal but as long as the center of pressure is where it needs to be, it will be very light, sensitive and readable.
My flags are made almost entirely of fiberglass. The vane, the shaft and even the pinwheel. Obviously, fiberglass is far superior to coroplast and doesn't water log, and it lasts almost forever. When I first started making them, I left a single flag running outside for 3 years. It only came down if the wind blew it over. We can all imagine, it took some strong storms and conditions over three years in southern Ky. The flag remained in good and very functional condition after all of that time and abuse. It did allow me to monitor wear and what parts or pieces needed to be changed or improved upon. As it turned out, they flags are basically the same today as they were some ten years ago with a couple of minor things done to improve them even further, that didn't show up in a three year test but did, in small numbers, over a ten year test with hundreds of people using them.
Point being, if I can improve on them, I do. Fortunately, it was proven to be a great design from the start. What started out as hand made has evolved into everything being laser cut and cnc machined.
They've been tested and compared to virtually every other flag available and have come out on top every single time...mostly by a large margin.
If anyone would like more info, you can contact me on here. As mentioned earlier, I'm always happy to be of help wherever I can be. --
Mike Ezell
What this means is that balancing a flag statically, in your house for example, is not like being balanced dynamically...like in use. One way to counter this is to make the vane big and heavy, so that it adds enough area to overcome the front to rear drag ratio. This is a wasteful and is a poorly thought out design, in terms of what make any flag work.
Since drag increases with wind speed, you're chasing a moving target in terms of the "ideal" balance point. This importance of this ideal balance point becomes more and more critical as the flag gets heavier and with pin diameter due to side load and resultant friction. More weight and more contact area, particularly on the side of the pin is bad....less is good here. Many makers add weight in the form of big nut to hold the daisy on the front or even a lead, steel or brass weights forward of the pivot point to mask this deficiency of their design. Ask yourself how adding weight to a wind flag can be a good thing unless it's there to mask a design problem.
ANY Flag can only tell you what has already happened. A lighter, more sensitive flag is simply closer to real time.
I've mentioned this before but will again...I'm very fortunate to have a good friend who is an aeronautical engineer who helped me to design my flags. We, the shooting community are benefiting from his knowledge being passed on to me and my flag design. Using any part of a flag, such as the tail, in making a flag that follows the laws of physics most efficiently, is exactly what we should be doing. There's no such thing as a flag that is too sensitive or too light. With proper engineering and pivot point placement, a feather can be stable in wind. There are a few flags that I've seen work well made of laminated construction paper. There are obvious reasons that I consider this less than ideal but as long as the center of pressure is where it needs to be, it will be very light, sensitive and readable.
My flags are made almost entirely of fiberglass. The vane, the shaft and even the pinwheel. Obviously, fiberglass is far superior to coroplast and doesn't water log, and it lasts almost forever. When I first started making them, I left a single flag running outside for 3 years. It only came down if the wind blew it over. We can all imagine, it took some strong storms and conditions over three years in southern Ky. The flag remained in good and very functional condition after all of that time and abuse. It did allow me to monitor wear and what parts or pieces needed to be changed or improved upon. As it turned out, they flags are basically the same today as they were some ten years ago with a couple of minor things done to improve them even further, that didn't show up in a three year test but did, in small numbers, over a ten year test with hundreds of people using them.
Point being, if I can improve on them, I do. Fortunately, it was proven to be a great design from the start. What started out as hand made has evolved into everything being laser cut and cnc machined.
They've been tested and compared to virtually every other flag available and have come out on top every single time...mostly by a large margin.
If anyone would like more info, you can contact me on here. As mentioned earlier, I'm always happy to be of help wherever I can be. --
Mike Ezell
Thanks Jeff, but Smiley has always made a good flag, and I have so many orders piled up right now I don’t know if I will ever get caught up! If there were that many more guys wanting them, I’d probably retire!
Sure Butch, but the point is a flag that is heavier on one end will always go to the way the stand is leaning in light conditions which can be a false read. Obviously as long as a guy doesn't mind taking the time to be sure the stand is perfectly straight up and down that is not a problem.
A flag that is closely balanced (one end is not heavier than the other) is much less susceptible to this happening with a tiny bit of lean of the stand. I set the stand up, eye ball it, if it looks straight, that’s good enough and on to the next one. (I know I’m lazy)
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You can purchase a purpose made, inexpensive level for the BRT flags to quickly ensure a level upright flag pole.
I only see conjecture and opinion based on what some are using. I can go there too, but prefer to stay with physics and to support my claims with facts. I've never been one to do anything simply because that's what others are doing.
I prefer to have an edge over my competitors where rules allow. Flags are a GREAT example of just such an area. There is zero value in doing what everyone else is doing.
Prove to yourself what is best without bias by using google if need be. If everyone would simply base their decisions based on facts, there would be no need for conjecture, geography or BS.
If you're happy with what you have, that's great. If you want the best, you should research what really makes any flag better than another. I'm not afraid of facts...I embrace them.
I prefer to have an edge over my competitors where rules allow. Flags are a GREAT example of just such an area. There is zero value in doing what everyone else is doing.
Prove to yourself what is best without bias by using google if need be. If everyone would simply base their decisions based on facts, there would be no need for conjecture, geography or BS.
If you're happy with what you have, that's great. If you want the best, you should research what really makes any flag better than another. I'm not afraid of facts...I embrace them.
Thanks Lamar. Yeah you guys out there have definitely kept me busy!
A j shooter
Shoot often
I live in south Ga I bought a set of Graham wind flags and love them .
I like the large vanes makes it easy to see at a distance. Plus I like the arrows on the vanes.
I have some friends that have the Ezell wind flag and there great to .
That being said I think as long as you buy a set from the one that’s been in business a while you want go wrong. Smiley flags are nice to .
I like the large vanes makes it easy to see at a distance. Plus I like the arrows on the vanes.
I have some friends that have the Ezell wind flag and there great to .
That being said I think as long as you buy a set from the one that’s been in business a while you want go wrong. Smiley flags are nice to .
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Rick, If you are a "serious" shooter you will make sure your flags are level. Have you ever used a ball swivel on your pole or stands to lever your flags. It eliminates the need to try nto level or make your stands straight.
Leveling with a ball swivel.
The ball swivel will screw right on the 1/4X20 threaded pin on your light stands.
I'm sure they are a little higher in price when I purchased mine at $9.95 each, but a small price to pay to get the best reading from your flags.
I'm not using this thread to endorse my BRT flags or to say any thing bad about your or Mike's flags. I'm just pointing out some important things that will help the response to yours or mine.
As I follow this very informative thread, I can't help thinking of Dwight and Donna Furrow, two top shooters from Maine, in the now almost dead 6X class, who for years kicked all of our butts with spinnerless flags made from rebar, that I never could figure out.
Rick, If you are a "serious" shooter you will make sure your flags are level. Have you ever used a ball swivel on your pole or stands to lever your flags. It eliminates the need to try nto level or make your stands straight.
Leveling with a ball swivel.
The ball swivel will screw right on the 1/4X20 threaded pin on your light stands.
I'm sure they are a little higher in price when I purchased mine at $9.95 each, but a small price to pay to get the best reading from your flags.
I'm not using this thread to endorse my BRT flags or to say any thing bad about your or Mike's flags. I'm just pointing out some important things that will help the response to yours or mine.
I bought 3 ball levellers when I bought my graham flags decades ago
Jeff
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Really Butch? Well I guess I’m just not a serious shooter then, and most all the other shooters I’ve shot BR with aren’t either because in all the years I’ve been doing this I don’t recall ever seeing anyone take a level out with them to set up their stands. Perfectly straight stands are just not a necessity with Graham flags, eyeballed close is good enough. If a guy feels compelled to make them perfect then I say go for it.
Even though I don’t fit your definition of a serious shooter, I have somehow managed to achieve a few small things. I must have just gotten lucky with that .199, 10 shot, 5 group, 200 yd, NBRSA agg record I held for several years, and those 3 Sniper King wins must have all just been a fluke. Just think how much better it would have been if I had my stands perfectly straight and I was actually serious!
Well, that’s about it for me. This is getting a little silly. Sorry if I stepped on some toes or hijacked the thread form the original poster. I just wanted to set the record straight about how to keep Graham flags balanced to work their best, and the reasons for it. I have done that so will now be signing off.
Thanks,
Rick
p.s. To the original poster’s question, I’m sure Butches Aussie flags will work just fine for you in Rimfire BR.
linekin
Gold $$ Contributor
Well Eddie, their tradition carries on up here to some extent. Some of us Mainers are tighter then 2 coats of paint!
Keith
linekin
Gold $$ Contributor
Rick, If you are a "serious" shooter you will make sure your flags are level. Have you ever used a ball swivel on your pole or stands to lever your flags. It eliminates the need to try nto level or make your stands straight.
Leveling with a ball swivel.
The ball swivel will screw right on the 1/4X20 threaded pin on your light stands.
I'm sure they are a little higher in price when I purchased mine at $9.95 each, but a small price to pay to get the best reading from your flags.
I'm not using this thread to endorse my BRT flags or to say any thing bad about your or Mike's flags. I'm just pointing out some important things that will help the response to yours or mine.
I've seen them cheaper than that on Amazon I think. If I find them again I'll post a link. A must have IMO.
Here is a link to a page that has a bunch under $9.00
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...aps,352&crid=Z0Q40M1EVTX8&tag=accuratescom-20
Keith
Thanks Rick for your input on this thread. I, and I'm sure others gained from it. It is good to know that your flag design does not require the stand to be plumbed dead nuts true- which reconciles with my experience using your flags over the last 10 years. In talking with fellow shooters in my region, your flag design was favored over others due to their simplistic design, durability, and readability at distances out to 300 yards at an affordable price- and your vane colors match the predominant color scheme used in the overwhelming majority of matches ( a deal breaker for me).
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butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Really Butch? Well I guess I’m just not a serious shooter then, and most all the other shooters I’ve shot BR with aren’t either because in all the years I’ve been doing this I don’t recall ever seeing anyone take a level out with them to set up their stands. Perfectly straight stands are just not a necessity with Graham flags, eyeballed close is good enough. If a guy feels compelled to make them perfect then I say go for it.
Even though I don’t fit your definition of a serious shooter, I have somehow managed to achieve a few small things. I must have just gotten lucky with that .199, 10 shot, 5 group, 200 yd, NBRSA agg record I held for several years, and those 3 Sniper King wins must have all just been a fluke. Just think how much better it would have been if I had my stands perfectly straight and I was actually serious!
Well, that’s about it for me. This is getting a little silly. Sorry if I stepped on some toes or hijacked the thread form the original poster. I just wanted to set the record straight about how to keep Graham flags balanced to work their best, and the reasons for it. I have done that so will now be signing off.
Thanks,
Rick
p.s. To the original poster’s question, I’m sure Butches Aussie flags will work just fine for you in Rimfire BR.
My intent was not to piss in your Post Toasties. I'm glad you are a successful shooter.
I agree, mine are slightly balanced to the vane.. with double ball bearings.. they are very sensitive and fast..
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