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Seeing Bullet holes at 600

i have a march 5-40. works sometimes. i also have a celestron telescope with several eyepieces for different magnifications. sees craters on the moon with ease... doesnt help much with haze though.

bottom line, if there is mirage, nothing works at 500+ yards or more. so i ended up build a remote viewing system out of FPV parts.

what does work always is gongs/metal. but if you are shooting for scores you really need a paper target of some sort.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
JamesnTN said:
Once you have a group going you need to hold same point and keep shooting to hold that group the best you can with conditions. If shooting F class that may be different situation.

You dont see the value of holding for shots to minimize damage in pickups and letoffs?

Dusty, my advice is once you start you do not stop.....
It is nice seeing holes though on your first target if you need a elevation correction though.

Bart,
You are ether going to be able to see them or not depending on conditions and more scope is not going to change that. I have a old B&L 36x that I can see holes always when the conditions are nice and when they are not I can not see any better through a 12-42 NF BR.

The NF 55x will probably give you a little better view but you will not gain as much as you might hope.

Good luck and enjoy the long range game!

Dallas
 
If it would help, the visibility of bullet holes is very condition dependent so please read the assumptions first.

Assumptions:

1. Well illuminated high contrast target image and clear air (no pollution, haze or mirage).

2. Observer has normal or corrected to normal (1MOA) visual resolution/acuity.

3. Minimum Objective Diameter to insure Dawes Resolution limit less than Bullet Hole Diameter.

4. Dawes Resolution Limit is defined as being able to tell that two 50% overlapping bullet holes are in fact two holes.


If the above conditions are met then theoretically:

6mm - 600 yards with 50.0 min objective diameter and 25.9x min magnification

6mm - 620 yards with 51.6 min objective diameter and 26.7x min magnification

6mm - 670 yards with 55.8 min objective diameter and 28.9x min magnification

.308 - 600 yards with 39.4 min objective diameter and 20.4x min magnification

.308 - 790 yards with 51.9 min objective diameter and 26.9x min magnification

.308 - 850 yards with 55.9 min objective diameter and 28.9x min magnification


From practical experience, the required conditions are seldom met with air quality (moisture, pollution, dust, mirage) and wind mixing the column of air from the scope objective to the target.
 
johara1 said:
Bart, I have or sold all the scopes mentioned and none work at a 1000 and none are reliable at 600. Don't get obsessed with seeing hole like short range BR. In shooting marked targets read the mirage with what the last hit gave you, don't chase the spotter. In BR 600 and 1000 pick a condition to shoot in and time it see how many shoots you can get off in the time then wait for it to return….. Jim O'Hara

Jim,

Very good advice! Occasionally I'd like to see my group before they hang it on the wall if possible. I am a runner by nature! Without being able to shoot any sighters to verify a condition had returned it would take a big set of cods to stop and wait for it to come back. But hey, I'm willing to give it a try. The best method seems to be getting 5 well aimed shots off in 8 to 12 seconds. That I can do!

Bart
 
this is tough to answer because everyone's eyes are different. However, for my old eyes.....in the SAME conditions, at 600 yards, with 6mm holes in the white....I can see holes with a NF 15-55. But if I pick up another rifle of mine (with a NF 12-42) and put it in the rest 20 seconds later I cannot see the same holes. At that same time I have put another person's rifle (with a March 10-60) in the rest and did see those same holes. For the record, my eyes see the holes clearer and brighter with the NF...but I don't want to start a NF vs. March debate.

the problem with all this is that conditions have to be VERY good for me to see holes. On average, that is probably only 20% of the time, maybe less. Most often, when mirage is running, I cannot see holes with any of the 3 scopes I mentioned. I am sure that younger eyes can improve the odds, but this is my 2 cents.

YMMV

Jack
 
BartsBullets said:
johara1 said:
Bart, I have or sold all the scopes mentioned and none work at a 1000 and none are reliable at 600. Don't get obsessed with seeing hole like short range BR. In shooting marked targets read the mirage with what the last hit gave you, don't chase the spotter. In BR 600 and 1000 pick a condition to shoot in and time it see how many shoots you can get off in the time then wait for it to return….. Jim O'Hara

Jim,

Very good advice! Occasionally I'd like to see my group before they hang it on the wall if possible. I am a runner by nature! Without being able to shoot any sighters to verify a condition had returned it would take a big set of cods to stop and wait for it to come back. But hey, I'm willing to give it a try. The best method seems to be getting 5 well aimed shots off in 8 to 12 seconds. That I can do!

Bart



Bart, I can't see that good any more, so i use a low power( not cheap) spotting scope. I set it where i think the condition is that affects the bullet the most way out, and watch the mirage and the direction of the flags. Up close i can still see. Now for marked targets you have one of the best, let Jim show you the way…….. Yes you get a little tense sitting there waiting for the condition to repeat but it will and if you watching the wind before you shoot you should know when. A little more advice watch the turbulence in front of the firing line when the 300's and 338's are going off, and watch through your scope at how much your gun moves and you aren't even touching it. I went through what you are many years ago, put short range on the back burner…… jim
 
gstaylorg said:
If you're talking about plain bullet holes in regular target paper, I don't think I could ever see holes at 600 yd with either my NF 12-42x56 scopes or my spotting scope at 60X. Obviously, correlating impacts with wind calls while you're actually shooting can be of significant benefit in terms of cause/effect to improve wind reading skills. There is another recent thread that deals with the use of splatter targets with the same idea in mind:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3883961.0



I don't think you can use them at IBS or NBRSA match and F class they shoot marked targets……. jim
 
Jim,

Thanks for the great advice! I am paying close attention. I admit I have been a bit obsessed by long range shooting. I've got one new long range rifle and three in the works. I can't ever see myself giving up on short range Benchrest, but Im enjoying the challenge of trying to figure out tuning and shooting for long range.

For now I'm going to try the 12x52 IOR out. If that doesn't suit me I'll pick up a 15x55 Night force.

I appreciate everyone's input!

Thanks
Bart
 
Build a target camera. I built mine for less than $100.
 

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Target camera, at any distance the signal transfer will allow, no matter what mirage. Or, for 1000yd, white painted steel and a high magnification scope and watch the dark spots (bullet splatter).
 
We have tested multiple optics — top end benchrest scopes, along with 80mm, 88mm, and even 100mm top end $3500+ spotting scopes.

Nothing was able to consistently and reliably see 6mm Bullet holes at 600 yards in white paper in all but very, very good conditions. And even that was limited by the eyes of the testers. 4 people testing. In perfect conditions two testers could see a 6mm hole with a 60 power state of the art HD low chromatic aberration spotter, yet the two other testers could not — looking through same glass at same time.

Bottom line —Do not invest huge dollars in any rifle scope with the expectation that it can reliably, in the majority of conditions, see bullet holes at 600 yards.
 
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I thought I read some time ago that Bart went with an IOR Terminator. I'd like to hear his thoughts on 600yd clarity and resolution compared to other scopes he's used or looked through since then. Especially with that 40mm tube.
Exactly what I was wondering? And whether @BartsBullets is still using the Terminator.
 
With the amount of light that tube and objective is letting in, how would you compare it to the more common scopes we see at matches? You don't have to give a point by point review, but I know I wouldn't mind hearing a little about either the Terminator or the Precision models as I haven't seen one at a match yet.

Also curious if the reticles are a little too busy.

$3700-$4000 isn't an easy price point to pay for most people without some user input.
RKS,

As far as clarity and brightness the Terminator and Precision are better than anything out there. There is no comparison. I can see Bullet holes better with these then I can with my rather pricey 3K spotting scope. They are also great at holding point of aim.

I don’t find the reticle as too busy. Often I use the extra lines to frame the sighter plate for a finer aim. On occasion when there has been a significant switch in conditions instead of clicking the scope I used one of the extra lines (the bullet hit on) as my new reticle and finished the group.

These scopes aren’t for everyone for a couple of reasons. They are Valdada’s flag ship scopes and are the top of the line. They are expensive but so are other scopes. For example March Genesis line of scopes start at 6K. Another reason why these aren’t for everyone is the weight of the scope. At 48 oz Most LR rifles can’t make weight for LG unless they are built from the ground up with the intention of using one. These scopes were built with extreme long range competition in mind.

So other than Cost and Weight, they are in my opinion the best scopes out there.

Side note - The last Two 600 yard Nationals were won with a modest 36 power Valdada.
Bart
 

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