Seating Depth vs Tuner - what are your thoughts?

[Paddyd]

What do you mean when you say .008”-.010” into the lands. Is that load that far past touch?

Yes

 

[TRSR8]

Op, you have got a lot of advice from different sides. What I reccomend when asked about tuners is to burn out 2 barrels without one first. Learn to tune. Then if you want to try one you have learned to tune first. Hopefully by then you can resist the urge to tuner tune the barrel. Unfortunately we dont have many short range group shooters posting here. The ones I know will never use the tuner to tune the barrel. They still adjust powder charge. Im in that camp. Theres a couple exceptions. What ever you decide, I can tell you that I have seen a lot of guys half ass a tune and try to bring it in with the tuner. They fix it for that day but it doesnt hold up. They struggle and burn out barrels chasing thier tail. Try as I might to explain this its become very obvious to me that its very hard for people to not try and cheat the tune with a tuner. In many cases I just have plead with them to try a barrel without one. When forced to tune they all of a sudden shoot better.

Ta Dah !!! Spot on Alex.
I shoot RFBR and CFBR. I will admit, i do not shoot tuner in CF for no particular reason but have had plenty of conversation with HOF guys, also on team USA and virtually, to a man, have pretty much stated, the ones shooting tuners, once they tune a barrel they rarely, if ever move it and match tune with load adjustment. Several shooting N133, hot, as in 31 gr +-.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ta Dah !!! Spot on Alex.
I shoot RFBR and CFBR. I will admit, i do not shoot tuner in CF for no particular reason but have had plenty of conversation with HOF guys, also on team USA and virtually, to a man, have pretty much stated, the ones shooting tuners, once they tune a barrel they rarely, id ever move it and match tune with load adjustment. Several shooting N133, hot, as in 31 gr +-.

I think that one thing that most CF tuner users would agree on is that a properly adjusted tuner will broaden a node.

 

[drop_point]

This new 6BRA is my fifth barrel. I have a tuner but I’ve never really used one.
Another question - how does a solid tune hold up when you throw on a suppressor?

It really depends. It can keep shooting good, it can get better, or it can go downhill fast.

I typically always tune with the suppressor on if I intend to shoot with it on.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Ok IS a tuner changing your barrel hormonic and seating dept. changing exit timing? To me ( asking for a friend) a tuner would more helpfully on a long barrel and seating dept would be more effective on a short stiff barrel. A lot of talk about hormonic and exit timing

 

[Bill Norris]

The tuner aligns barrel harmonics with bullet exit time. There is no other function the tuner can do.

 

[TRSR8]

I think that one thing that most CF tuner users would agree on is that a properly adjusted tuner will broaden a node.

Seems to be the case as well.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

The tuner aligns barrel harmonics with bullet exit time. There is no other function the tuner can do.

Thank you for clearing that up with a simple answer for me and other to understand. Now does seating depth change both harmonic and exit time?

 

[Longrange57]

I think that one thing that most CF tuner users would agree on is that a properly adjusted tuner will broaden a node.

Mr Boyd Allen, I remember in 2013 when you noted that Gene Bukys set his tuner in the middle of a node, locks it in, and never moves it, preferring to tune by "normal" methods. In visiting with many top shooters through the years, and many still to this day, they do the same. Matches can be won with or without tuners. Some of the best in the business still prefer no tuner. Some of the best prefer a tuner. I think we would agree, there should be no argument!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think that one thing that most CF tuner users would agree on is that a properly adjusted tuner will broaden a node.

Technically this is true but its such a small amount that any benefit gets lost in the noise. I know this from vibration analysis testing, so not guessing or hypothesising.

Exact numbers vary with other factors like tuner weight, barrel stiffness and likely even the homogeny of the steel bbl. We plan on testing pre and post cryo bbls in the near future for this reason.

Its tiny in regard to node width. Most every factor to tuning is more significant.

I know its been claimed and its true, just not enough to matter unless its a confidence thing. Which, as we know, does matter but is harder to quantify.

 

[Bill Norris]

Thank you for clearing that up with a simple answer for me and other to understand. Now does seating depth change both harmonic and exit time?

Seating depth most certainly will change exit time and I guess could affect harmonics but I am not educated enough to say yes or no.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Seating depth most certainly will change exit time and I guess could affect harmonics but I am not educated enough to say yes or no.

Yes, in simplest terms, tuning by any method is mostly about timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position.

Load variables dictate exit time for the most part and tuners allow us to manipulate muzzle position. So, in a very real sense, both methods achieve the same goal....timing bullet exit and muzzle position for best accuracy.

 

[Bill Norris]

Yes, in simplest terms, tuning by any method is mostly about timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position.

Load variables dictate exit time for the most part and tuners allow us to manipulate muzzle position. So, in a very real sense, both methods achieve the same goal....timing bullet exit and muzzle position for best accuracy.

I figured u would help out.

 

[ELR LVR]

I’d love to hear what everyone thinks about this.

as Erik Cortina made a good point on here being:
A Tuner is a good tool if you travel to shoot at different locations
And if you preload
Since if you preload for your home range then travel to a different place with different atmospheric conditions
your preload may be off slightly due to humidity and temp etc
and the tuner will help compensate for what maybe a small tweak of a load would accomplish
but you can't tweak your load if you already preloaded your ammo
but you can tweak your tuner
---
my load development usually looks like the pic when I'm done, so I have not found a tuner does any better
AT MY HOME RANGE
but in a totally different State, I can bet that same load won't shoot in the same hole

 

[Bill Norris]

as Erik Cortina made a good point on here being:
A Tuner is a good tool if you travel to shoot at different locations
And if you preload
Since if you preload for your home range then travel to a different place with different atmospheric conditions
your preload may be off slightly due to humidity and temp etc
and the tuner will help compensate for what maybe a small tweak of a load would accomplish
but you can't tweak your load if you already preloaded your ammo
but you can tweak your tuner

Yes it is a combination of most all the atmospheric conditions that play a role in controlling tune. I've been told it is summed up with density altitude.

 

[Shooter13]

Alex said a mouthful. Learn to tune first.

I think I said the same thing I'm just not as elegant as Alex

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes it is a combination of most all the atmospheric conditions that play a role in controlling tune. I've been told it is summed up with density altitude.

Air density plays a role but smokeless powder turning from a solid to a gas is a chemical reaction. Im not aware of any chemical reactions on earth that are not temperature dependent, to varying degrees, of course.

That said, if you shoot in an area where temps stay stable but density changes more dramatically, relatively speaking..that's when you'll see density be of larger relative importance. Bryan Z did his testing in just such an area, the pacific nw. Most of the country will see bigger affects from temps but temp and air density are also related but not linearly all the time

Hence, there are times when the same temp swing that held tune all day today, goes away tomorrow. An extreme example would be a stable temp in a super low pressure storm front, but good winds.

 

[ELR LVR]

Yes it is a combination of most all the atmospheric conditions that play a role in controlling tune. I've been told it is summed up with density altitude.

Agreed
I dont know what parameter plays the bigger role but I have worked up a load in 50F weather and had it shoot like crap when it suddenly warms up a week later to 70F

 

[Shooter13]

I dont use a tuner.. i really think people try to skip seating depth because cortina said something like that in a pod cast.. cortina is awsome.

I don't think any serious BR shooter skips anything, I do the powder test, I do the seating test, I do the neck tension test, I do the crush test, I do the ................. AND THEN I WORK ON THE TUNER and regularly get my butt handed to me in a paper bag, no roses, no flowers and no money. Oh, no fake wood.
A couple of years ago I was shooting a 30BR, no one had ever shot a perfect score with a 30 (264). Mike Schubert and I were neck & neck until the last target, I missed one and Mike hit the all, cost Danny Hensley $100 (he promised the first person to shoot a perfect score would receive the $100). I'm sure that pressure is what got me
I can promise you that Eric doesn't skip ANY steps. I'm also sure he didn't say that but did say "something like that".

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Agreed
I dont know what parameter plays the bigger role but I have worked up a load in 50F weather and had it shoot like crap when it suddenly warms up a week later to 70F

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This is true but while density goes down with temp increase, its not necessarily the same air density over the same temp increase, from day to day etc. Non linear density change over the same temp swing.

Same, tuner or no tuner. These are the challenges to KEEPING up with peak tune.