Seating Depth vs Tuner - what are your thoughts?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

When your gun goes out of tune at a match you have three choices.
A) live with it
B) change the load
C) move the tuner

 

[JEFFPPC]

But if I put a tuner on my (insert latest, greatest , flat billed influencer rifle), I'll be a world beater...Right?!?

They hope.

 

[JEFFPPC]

When your gun goes out of tune at a match you have three choices.
A) live with it
B) change the load
C) move the tuner

And none of that matters if your ignoring or not using flags.

 

[Paddyd]

What do you mean when you say .008”-.010” into the lands. Is that load that far past touch?

Yes. Think of touch as zero. Zero + .008" = .008" into the rifling.
zero - .008" = an .008" jump to touch.

 

[Paddyd]

3 shot ladder @ 6 or 1K will tell you ALL you need to know, trust the paper !

Not always. I've shot so many bug hole 3 shot groups thinking I was shooting a hammer of a load on the 3rd shot only to see a wild flier on #4 or a double group with 5.
3 shots ONLY tell you your load is shooting too big and for that, all you need is 2. Start with 2, and add more rounds till you see where dispersion blows it up. If still tight at 5, then try it tomorrow and see if it repeats.

 

[quest450]

Thank you.....excellent advice Paddyd I might try it someday

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

And none of that matters if your ignoring or not using flags.

Very true but that's a different subject. There are many, many things that go into winning. Tune is just one of them. It doesn't have to be the weak link though.

 

[bugman]

Gonna need a lot of neck tension…. ^^^^^^^^ otherwise the bullet will just reach a point of being shoved back into the cartridge.

Yep, In my experience, even with a long necked case and .005 tension..... 25+ thou. jam will often push the bullet further into the case. Of course this is with an annealed case. Even worse, many times the amount of distance moved back into the case will vary. If you use that method for match rounds, use a secant or hybrid ogive bullet and hope the OAL window is wide. If you use that method for a rough JT, then try a squeaky clean brake-cleaned internal neck surface for more grip.

In my experience, purposely lubing a bullet, or using very light tension, or longitudinally splitting a case neck in order to use a 'soft seat" to determine just touch is also very inconsistent. The problem arises when you extract the case to measure OAL....That "soft seat" can also result in moving the bullet in the opposite direction......and how will you ever know.

Bottom line for me, anyway, is to find JT using the incremental seating method with a stripped bolt. Besides, most custom bullets will shoot best between 10 jam and 10 jump. If they don't, then your FB length is wrong for the bullet you are using

Apologies for ignoring tuners but without a repeatable JT, the comparison is worthless. Everything I stated relates to BR only, and not PRS or magazine-fed platforms.

 

[Woollybugger]

Off on another tangent……
As a lazy coyote guy with a can and no tuner, I start at touch on the lands and work back to -.020 at most and live with what it can do out of an aics mag. FB and throated to stay above the donut. In a hot 20cal I do this in as few rounds as I can and save that barrel for yotes.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You will get different answers based on if the guys shoot long range, short range, group, or score. Bullet shape and rate of throat wear will form those opinions. If you get your tune really right it will hold up really good. If you feel like you need a tuner to stay in tune often, I would be looking at powder, different lot or different powder. If a tuner shrank your groups, you werent done tuning.

 

[AckleymanII]

Not always. I've shot so many bug hole 3 shot groups thinking I was shooting a hammer of a load on the 3rd shot only to see a wild flier on #4 or a double group with 5.
3 shots ONLY tell you your load is shooting too big and for that, all you need is 2. Start with 2, and add more rounds till you see where dispersion blows it up. If still tight at 5, then try it tomorrow and see if it repeats.

ON the square of a benchrest target, shoot 4 three shot groups on the corners to verify.

 

[AckleymanII]

The most accurate barrel I have ever shot was on a barrel with a tuner, and I am certainly no EXPERT on tuners. I was running a Mike Ezel tuner. I worked up a load with the tuner set all the way to the rear, tweaked load, seating depth, and primer choices, and the barrel was shooting in the mid to low 2's. Then I started tuning. I found what I thought was the best tune. The best tune had the slightest bit of vertical in the load, still agging in the high 1's and low 2's. I added .2g of powder to try and see if the vertical disappeared, and it did. I shot more aggs in the zeros with this barrel than any barrel I have ever owned.

There are a butt load of variables in all of this, and for a person that likes to be creative, the possibilities are endless.

The vast majority of people do not know how to work up a load, and I am still learning. USE WIND FLAGS!

 

[Shooter13]

I’d love to hear what everyone thinks about this.

Look, you've already seen the "nice" guys. Some can be real a-holes. If you are new you need to learn the search feature.
All that being said do a full load development with tuner on but set at zero or whatever # you want, do powder work up, seating depth, amount of bushing to use THEN start with the tuner, I use the ezell and Mike is a great asset, do EXACTLY what he says, don't skip steps. After finding that "perfect" tune can/will it change? More than likely but that is why the tuner is so important, you will learn to adjust the tuner just like guys vary the amount of powder they use to "stay in tune", good luck and hope it all works out.

 

[Dfin]

Don’t know about PRS, but it is pretty common in BR to have bullet seated well beyond the touch point.

Before I start load development with a new barrel, I find touch and record that dimension. After that, I size a case with my preferred bushing, than seat a bullet 50 or 60 thou longer than my touch dimension. Once I am there, I smear a bit of lube on the bullet then load the dummy round into chamber. At that point, the bolt has performed the final bullet seating operation. Once the dummy round is extracted, I measure the CBTO and record that dimension too. I now have the touch point CBTO and the maximum length CBTO dimensions at my disposal. Armed with that data, load development can then begin.

Jamb and touch are not the same thing, correct? What’s your process to find touch?

 

[Shooter13]

Jamb and touch are not the same thing, correct? What’s your process to find touch?

Correct, touch is exactly that, I used the Wheeler method to find touch and it is repeatable every time. I jam about .020/.030 from touch on my 30BRS, about .007 on a 6PPC (each gun will vary and it is trial and error. Yes, it is time consuming, but the reward is great on a true accuracy gun.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Jamb and touch are not the same thing, correct? What’s your process to find touch?

You just got good advice from Shooter 13. I will add. You do not need a definitive number jam or touch. I like touch as I have had much better REPEATABLE results with touch. Seat a bullet in a sized case. Now polish the bullet a bit. Chamber it in the rifle. When removing it a reach and guide it straight back so it's not needing scraped by the action. Look at it and you can see where the land are marking the bullet. Measure base to ogive and you have a reference point. I have my barrel chambered giving the smith my bullet of choice seated with the pressure ring half way up the neck. This insures room to seat longer or shorter and keeps the pressure ring above the case shoulder junction. This requires the use of a throated. Remember what you need is a REPEATABLE reference point. This works well for me.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Don't be afraid to jump in and try. Different guys make different methods work tuning. You need to fine a PROCESS that works for you. Avoid random jumping around wearing the best life of your barrel out searching for a load with no plan.

 

[quest450]

Your process seems difficult and confusing especially to a new-er shooter why not just stick to what works aka. Wheeler-Deep Creek method it's simple and repeatable

I'm glad your mumbo-jumbo works for you

 

[JEFFPPC]

Your process seems difficult and confusing especially to a new-er shooter why not just stick to what works aka. Wheeler-Deep Creek method it's simple and repeatable

I'm glad your mumbo-jumbo works for you

Whats simpler than seat a bullet look at the marks? If your referring to chambering, lots of folks with incorrect throats.

 

[JFrank]

Stripped bolt is easy, barrel off touch is very easy, stop/stick point with L&L is also easy. Judging touch from rub marks seem a bit subjective to the viewer but any of these methods will get the job done.
The one thing that I try to do is use the same bullet with each lot number of bullets.

Even custom bullets…