Scope problems on new build.

[9sigman45]

I recently had a new F-tr rig built, and so far I'm getting some of the best groups I've ever shot. Its a .308 Win built around a Kelbly F-class Panda action (w/ built in 20 min picatinny rail). The barrel is a 30" Brux. The stock is a blue/black laminant that was custom made by Precision Rifle & Tool. I'm using Kelbly rings and a 42x56mm NXS. With a solid 200 yard zero, I only have 27 min of up left in the scope. I'm guessing I'll need 29 to 30 min to get my 185 gr Berger BT to 1,000 (around 2700 fps MV). Any idea whats causing the lack of available elevation? Please help me figure this out.
Thanks!

 

[NateHaler]

Kelbly F-class Panda action (w/ built in 20 min picatinny rail). I'm using Kelbly rings and a 42x56mm NXS. With a solid 200 yard zero, I only have 27 min of up left in the scope. I'm guessing I'll need 29 to 30 min to get my 185 gr Berger BT to 1,000 (around 2700 fps MV). Any idea whats causing the lack of available elevation?

The NXS 12-42x56 has a modest 45 MOA of total internal elevation adjustment. Figure with a flat mount, you would be somewhat above the midway point of that figure, which would leave you probably a tad less than 20 MOA of elevation. Again, ON A FLAT MOUNT. Just a hypothetical, but based on mounting lots of scopes on lots of different rifles.

So, you're thinking, with the Panda's supposed 20 MOA taper, your short range zero should be MUCH closer to the bottom of the adjustment range, which should yield you -- hopefully -- maybe closer to 40 MOA of 'up' in that NXS.

Why only 27 MOA of 'up' remaining instead? Well, it might be that the Panda's scope base taper isn't actually 20 MOA. That's my best guess. Kelbly rings are machined to extremely close tolerances and in matching pairs. I'm excluding them as a suspect.

I think you need to make certain that your action really is the type with the tapered scope base. Looking at their website (http://www.kelbly.com/price2.html), it's easy to verify that their F-Class Panda normally features a 20 MOA rib (which would be the Davidson type normally). If you pay the $100 fee for the Picatinny, I would expect that it too would have a 20 MOA taper. But you oughta make sure.

If the Picatinny rail is machined in, then you're going to have to solve the problem with ring taper. If the rail is removable, then you can replace it simply enough.

Good luck!

 

[9sigman45]

The rail is machined into the action, so no changing there, short of getting a new action. The last section of the rail has "00 20' " machined into it, and I did order the tapered rail. There's no comparison bewteem the Kelbly rail and a Badger 20 min rail. My Badgers have an obvious height difference from front to back (visually looks close to 1/8"). The Kelbly looks nothing like that. Could Kelbly possibly have their math wrong?

 

[BoydAllen]

I have always found the folks at Kelbly's to be very helpful. I would think that if you called, that they could tell you what dimensions to check to verify the angle of your built-in scope base. I suppose that your action could have been incorrectly marked. If this is the case, I have no doubt that they will take care of the problem. Luckily, their actions are sufficiently uniform that you should have no problem transferring your barrel, insofar as headspace and thread fit go. Let us know what you find out.

 

[9sigman45]

Yeah, I really don't think the problem is in the action. I looped a piece of thread around the bolt shroud and stretched it taught across the rear of the rail. I slowly moved the tag end toward the muzzle until it just made contact with the front of the rail. It's definetly tappered, so no wories with the action. Therefore I'm thinking the issue lies with either the rings or the scope. I've pulled a 32x56mm NXS off my old F-tr rifle and will see if I have the same problem, if so it, must be the rings. If not, then it's the scope. A NIB 12-42x56mm NXS with 1/8 MOA elevation adjustments.

 

[9sigman45]

Went back to the range today with my 32x56mm installed and after getting a good zero at 200 I started cranking the up elevation knob. The turret topped out at 37 min of up, exactly 10 min more than the 42x56mm. That makes perfect sense, because the 32 has 20min more elevation adjustment than the 42. That rulles out the new scope as the culprit. My next component to test will be the rings.

 

[BoydAllen]

If one ring turns out to be slightly taller than the other, you can put the short one in front, before lapping, and gain a little by your lapping technique as well.

 

[jlmurphy]

It sounds like you have a 10 MOA base. 45/2=22.5 -5 (to get to 200)=17 + 10 = 27. I have a 15 MOA base with a NF 12x42,it only has 40 MOA total, my 100yard zero is at the bottom of the vertical adjustment.

 

[hammerjack]

This may not be what you want to use but a set
of Burris Signature Zee rings will fix your problem.

 

[9sigman45]

This may not be what you want to use but a set
of Burris Signature Zee rings will fix your problem.

Yeah, I'd consider that more of a bandaid, not a fix.

I bought the Kelbly action and Kelbly rings not only for their weight savings, but also because I thought that they would work as well together as they look together. And they look awesome!

At this point I'm honestly not sure what the problem is, but I have contacted both Kelbly and PR&T asking for help. I'm sure it'll work out eventually, but I don't play the guinea pig role very well. The sad part is that at 200 yards I'm having some of the best groups I've ever shot! Sans the elevation issue, I love everthing about this set-up and hope to quickly get it "fixed".

 

[9sigman45]

Apparently its a known fact (by atleast a couple people in the industry) that Kelbly's 20 moa rail and NF's 42x NXS are a no go for .308s to 1,000. Thank goodness I didn't learn it while on the firing line 5 hours from home!
It appears I have 3 options:
1) Buy some Burris Z rings
2) Stick with my 32x NXS
3) Convert it to a F-open rifle in a caliber that needs less than 27 moa to get to 1,000.
For now I'm going to stick to #2.

Thanks all for your comments.

 

[9sigman45]

Kelbly's idea of a 20 MOA rail is different from Badger's, BAT's and Defiance's. There may be others, but I'm only listing those that I have personal experience with. I really don't understand, as math is not supposed to be "subjective", and 20 MOA should be 20 MOA no matter who is doing the machining.

Kelbly told me today that machining their action with more taper in the rail is (and I quote) "NOT POSSIBLE". To any that are planning to use a Kelbly action in 308 Win with a 42x NF and desire getting to 1,000 yards, you best make tapered rings a part of your plan!

 

[deadlyswift]

Hmmmm!!!

 

[expiper]

I have an F-class Kelbly action with the integral "Unertal" dovetail rail that is 20 MOA....and it is what it is supposed to be.....I am clear at the bottom at 100yds on all the Leupold scopes that I have instlalled....then i hav all the up for 600-1000yds....works great with them....Roger

 

[9sigman45]

Roger, I think that most of the "lower maginfication" Leupys have much more available elevation than my "higher magnification" NXS. The Kelbly will work just fine with my 32x NXS, but I didn't buy a new 42x NXS for kicks and giggles. The 2 crititcal keys one must grasp to understand my issue are: A) the rifle is a 308 Win, not a 284 Win etc. and B) the NF 42x only has 45 MOA of elevation. However, with a true 20 MOA rail like the other actions I listed above, its no problem to get a 308 to 1000 with a 42x NXS.

I guess some may believe that Badger, BAT, Defiance and many others have it wrong, and Kelbly has it right. I on the other hand, do not.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the look of this action, and I'm getting some of the best groups I've ever had, but I think Kelbly should consider changing the name of this action to the "F-Open Panda", or atleast provide the correct slope of the machined in rail, because 20 MOA it is not (per my experiences anyhow).

I have an F-class Kelbly action with the integral "Unertal" dovetail rail that is 20 MOA....and it is what it is supposed to be.....I am clear at the bottom at 100yds on all the Leupold scopes that I have instlalled....then i hav all the up for 600-1000yds....works great with them....Roger

 

[Taildrag15X]

Roger, I think that most of the "lower maginfication" Leupys have much more available elevation than my "higher magnification" NXS. The Kelbly will work just fine with my 32x NXS, but I didn't buy a new 42x NXS for kicks and giggles. The 2 crititcal keys one must grasp to understand my issue are: A) the rifle is a 308 Win, not a 284 Win etc. and B) the NF 42x only has 45 MOA of elevation. However, with a true 20 MOA rail like the other actions I listed above, its no problem to get a 308 to 1000 with a 42x NXS.

I guess some may believe that Badger, BAT, Defiance and many others have it wrong, and Kelbly has it right. I on the other hand, do not.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the look of this action, and I'm getting some of the best groups I've ever had, but I think Kelbly should consider changing the name of this action to the "F-Open Panda", or atleast provide the correct slope of the machined in rail, because 20 MOA it is not (per my experiences anyhow).



I have no problems getting to 1,000 with my 20-50X50mm Leupold Long Range Target Scopes without the need for a 20 moa base on either of my F/TR Rifles in .223 Rem & .308 Win..

I use the built in Reticle hold over just like my Nightforce 12-42x56 BR has, that's why the why they put them in, to help stay centered as possible in the tube.

 

[johara1]

My F class action is marked 20 min on the rail if it is marked that's what it is. You have a total of 65 min.elev. i have no problem getting on at 1K with the Dasher when zeroed at a hundred. I can not see any problem and if there is one the Burris sig rings will give the option of 0,10,20,30 and 40 min. with a 20 min. 1913 rail on your panda ......jim

 

[expiper]

sig9....my low power leupolds (wink) are 10-50 's and a culpla 45's.....Imust admit the 45's with 1/8 kliks and only 40 sumthin moa's of travel do get purdy near the top at 1000 with a 6mmBr.....but with the $$$ we spend on these marvelous shootin irons I try to not get married to any scope brand or type.....you can always sell these valuable scopes and trade up.....I have used em all ....its mostly knowing whether to to hold to the right or the left....Roger

 

[9sigman45]

Roger, I was not trying to call you out or belittle your gear. Sorry if that's how I sounded. I started out with Leupy products myself and was really happy with them, but have grown fond of the NXS line and ceartinly love that NF cool-aid.

I really would like to think that when an action is marked 20 MOA that its just that, nothing more, nothing less. But when I pull a scope off my GAP bult Templar F-tr rifle (which is proven by a couple NRA Nationals records last year ;>) and set it atop my new Kelbly and have to dial in almost 10 MOA to get zeroed at 200 yards, there's a problem. Upon their request, I sent pics to Kelbly and my feedback was that it is indeed the 20' variety, and that it's probably a "non-concentric bore". I find that hard to believe, but I will have my smith check it out soon enough. Personally I don't think it's a barrel issue because one of my buddies recently bought a Kelbly F-class action and it has the same issue. I also checked with a couple others that have this action with a 42x NXS bolted on top of their F-Open rifles. They both have between 4 & 5 MOA of elevation left when dialed to 1,000 (i.e. Zero + 24 MOA for the 1,000 yardline, and then 4 to 5 MOA before the elevation turret tops out). To me this means their actions' rail taper are just like mine. The only difference is that they're shooting a much flatter caliber (284 Win), which doesn't require the amount of compensation that my 308 does.

My whole reason for this discussion is to notify others of what I'm going thru, as I sure wish I'd had known about this before I pulled the trigger. And this doesn't mean that I wouldn't have bought the Kelbly, but I would have planned the build differently. I'm already thinking of buying another Panda, but in a dual port configuration, so I can use that saved weight for what ever MOA solution I decide to go with.

I've looked at the Burris rings, and their mounting hardward just doesn't do it for me. I'll be contacting Stiller and a couple others Monday as I've seen where they've offered tapered rings in the past. Heck, I may even look into NF's one piece ring mount with 20 MOA. I'm afraid they may put me overwieght though (hence why I said I would have planned differently had I known). All's not lost though; if I'm able to find some suitable 20 MOA rings myset-up would be nearly perfect. That would put my 200 yard zero 1 MOA off the bottom, so I'd have approximately 44 MOA of up to work with, doesn't get much better than that.

 

[expiper]

Heloo...sig 9....i unerstand your delima....I would recomend a Kodiak if you wana save wt....get it with a 20moa unertal dovetail on top....and if you need more you can add another 20 moa adaptor wedge for shootin at a mile ,etc.....they save wt...have integaral recoil lug....any port configuaration you want.....The folks at kelblys will make it right with you.....I know there is nothing more aggravating than a dog that wont hunt.....I too have a cupla nat records with my junk.....there is nothing betr than a good shootin rifle and your seeing how thos Panda/Kodiacs work....you will win out....Roger
PS,,,,FORGET that pikadilly rail .....and the heavy rings associated with it....use what has workd for decades on the proven actions.....