scale rant

[memilanuk]

Bill,

Read the posts carefully... then re-read them. When it takes off 'running', I don't care what you use for a 'reference'. The scale pan, a set of check weights that weigh the same or nearly so what your charge is,what I use), or some home-made version thereof,what you describe), doesn't matter. It flat out changes readings, big time. Not a couple hundredths, or even a few tenths, but WHOLE GRAINS.

Monte

 

[jtm]

what type of beam scales are you using.Are you sure they are consistently accurate

 

[shcal]

I'm using an old Redding oil filled balance beam scale. There is a small reservoir just below the fulcrum. A paddle attached to the beam dips into the oil reservoir and serves to dampen the up-and-down movement when weighing a load. This is real low tech.

In order to ensure you are weighing things accurately you should first calibrate the scale to zero every time you move it. Then calibrate it to a known weight,use one of the check weights that came with one of your high priced electronic scales, I have an old Pact that has two weights). the, every so often re-check. I use this in conjunction with my Johnson powder thrower and a trickler. Seems to work for me.

 

[dreever]

Monte,

My Denver Instruments MXX-123 has none of the problems mentioned above. During one fifty round reloading session my scale may need re-zeroed a couple of times showing .002-.004 over zero. I have left charges in the pan for 15+ minutes while I answered the phone and when I came back they weighed exactly what they did when I left.
Since the D.I. and Acculab are basically twins, both made by Sartonius I'd call them, tell them this is unacceptable, and request a new replacement. D.I. and Acculab may be two separate company's but either one should take care of you.
You can always demand a refund from Acculab, or whoever you bought it from, buy a D.I. MXX-123 directly from D.I. for $275 + free shipping and pocket the difference for your trouble.

Danny

 

[jtm]

Not so easy when you live in OZ you guys dont know how easy you have it 100 Barts cost us 50-65 dollars 45x leopold scope is 2000 bucks so we import out of nessecity and when we have a hassle it compounds into a cluster faq Kreiger barrel blank 520 bucks starting to understand our frustration and our $ is only worth 85 cents pretty good over there ay
jim

 

[JustinP]

Amen to that Jim - getting gear in, or replacing it, is a complete nightmare in terms of cost and time here in Aus.

I've reverted to my Redding 505gr beam balance and now I have zero headaches - and I'm spending less time in the powder charging phase to boot.

Funny old world - you accumulate new gear to try and then end up getting rid of a lot of it to go back to what is tried, tested and reliable...

Justin

 

[jtm]

did you get any joy from Kim Irving I found him very helpful .new ac unit arrived and all is sweet for now mine doesnt wander like yours.touch wood. good luck
jim

 

[ReedG]

It's funny how it all goes around. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of good handloading is "psychology". I've spent many hundreds of dollars over the years as I progressed from varmint hunter to benchrest shooter to have the latest, most accurate something or other.

The most accurate scale I've ever had for handloading purposes is an old Redding No. 1 oil damper model I bought in 1962,still got it). Second-best is the RCBS 505 I use most of the time now. Had several more expensive balance scales and several electronic models including a $239 one. My current Lyman electronic is a drifting, inconsistent nightmare because my loading area is not even close to "laboratory conditions".

In fact, now that I've thrown a few thousand loads with my Harrell's BR powder measure I'll pit it against any of the electronics outside of the "laboratory". This powder measure is so consistent that it soon gets boring to weigh the charges.

Why do I need to confound my handloading with a scale that needs to be "perfectly" level, in a no-draft environment, warmed-up for a week or so before I use it, turn off my cellphone, don't use my ham radio ... is it OK if the neighbor mows his lawn?!!

I challenge anyone to load 10 rounds each of their most-accurate load and 10 rounds 0.1 more or less and show me the difference on the target -- regardless of how close or far away it is. The Harrell's BR and Redding BR measures will each hold 0.1 grain outdoors on the loading bench or in the clubhouse on a table or in my basement loading area.

Whether you do or don't brush the inside of your case neck will show more variation on the target than 0.2 grain variation of powder. Swirling the powder into the cases so the kernels all lay down will get you more consistency than 0.5 grains of powder variation.

Even if you're weighing cases, 0.1 grain plus/minus on a case weighing 110 to 200 grains is inconceivably minuscule.

A good modern RCBS or Redding balance scale is more than accurate enough to load championship ammo anytime, anywhere.

At our IBS score match this past weekend, Allie and Lee Euber shot tie scores,250/11X) at 200 meters. Allie "Creedmoored" Lee for the match win but Lee shot his score on an earlier relay and he gets the new World's Record. Neither of them could come within 0.5 grain of telling you what load they used. They use Harrell-type measures, record the clicks, and keep cranking 'til the bullet goes where they want it. Nowhere is it about 0.001 grains or 0.01 grains because that is what matters the least in putting them on the X. The mirage was boiling, the wind flags were on steroids, the competition was intense, and 0.1 grain was of no consequence to any of it.

 

[memilanuk]

Since you want to go that route... tell me how many top long range competitors throw vs. weigh?

You guys are shooting 100/200, sometimes 300yds, with powders that meter pretty well. Hell, I wouldn't weigh charges for that either.

But... I don't shoot powders like that. As noted, Varget, for being a supposed 'short-cut' powder... meters like crap. So, no, it's not the same thing and no, your point blank BR examples don't directly translate across. Sorry.

 

[dreever]

I have a Harrells Preminum BR measure and it does not throw Varget worth crap. In one fifty round loading session throwing each charge and then weighing and trickleing up on my MXX-123 for 30.5 grains it will throw charges from 29.80 to 30.90 with the vast majority around 30.4. It's those one or two off the charts either way that's bad news. Personally I feel that for long range you have to weigh every charge to eliminate vertical.
I'm not completely anal, I allow 30.50-30.54. Anything over or under that isn't acceptable to me.

Danny

 

[shcal]

The Culver type throwers do a good job on ball and flake type powders but really don't work on the stick type powders. My Harrels really does not work with Varget or H-4350. However with N-135 it does a good job.

 

[JustinP]

Same here - my Harrells measure won't throw consistent loads with stick type powders. Generally, it'll throw these powders within 0.5gr of required weight, not close enough to preclude weighing.

Jim - I've just sent an e-mail to Kim Irving and we'll see what he comes back with. Fingers crossed, although I'm not sure I'll ever trust a set of electronic scales again...

Justin

 

[dlebeck]

WOW do I feel smart! I also went through the 10 levels of scale HELL. Then I became enlightened, sold all that crap, went back to my Redding BR an RCBS 1010 and a vibra shine trickler. What a joy reloading is once again and get this, a bonus. The money I got from selling all that scale crap, well it bought me a brand new Broughton 5C barrel. Oh man does that baby shoot! So the lesson is sell that crap and buy a new barrel or something you can actually use.

Thanks guys

 

[JustinP]

Rub it in, why don't you??

Despite making contact with Sartorius today, with a view to getting the unit replaced,thanks Jim), I think I'll be pretty much sticking with my balance beam scales from now on. I might sell any replacement unit off,only if it works properly, mind). I don't think I'll ever trust an electronic scale enough again to go without double checking some of the charges on the beam balance - which is just back to time wasting at the bench when I should be out shooting.

Cheers, Justin

 

[GrocMax]

Try a heavier pan, something that weighs at least 25% scale capacity. Load cells work on very small voltage differences, at the lower end of the scale I'm guessing the analog to digital bit conversion numbers are very small, and the AD curve is most likely not a fixed slope but more of an exponential curve, which would make them much more sensitive to electrical and environmental interference when they are at the low end. As and experiment throw several hundred grains of bullets on it, zero, and see if it drifts less over time. Who cares where zero starts as long as it is consistent?

 

[jtm]

Justin,my scales work fine & yes i am touching wood the new AC unit had an ozzy 3 pin plug & i think it is better than the adaptor & euro 2 pin are you near any high power overhead lines or other electrical thing .try the new ones mine rally do behave well when i walk past them ill give them a push down & there on all the time

 

[JustinP]

Jim

Contacted the Australian Acculab Rep, Kim Irving. Acculab USA are going to replace my scales. It'll just cost me shipping to their local office.

Good on them for decent customer service and having an active curiousity about whatever the hell is wrong with the unit...

Cheers

Justin

 

[harvey13118]

The biggest headache with mine was static. I got,stole from laundry room) the cling free sheets and wiped it all down including the little weight stem and pan. Works sooooo much better. Very rarely drifts now. Very rarely over charges. I'll try a pipe cleaner with anti static spray and see if it helps that.

 

[24kshooter]

After hearing this I am glad my little $240 Lyman 1200 DPS-II has worked as well as it has. Radio wave interferance was an issue for me as in cell or portable phone being used within 5 feet of unit. It took me a while to figure that issue out.

 

[SlowpokeRodriguez]

Amen to the power issues I am expecting my DI MXX 123 on Friday and will use the same surge protector that powers the RCBS Chargemaster. Hope I can avoid any of the troubles outlined here but have been using the electronic scales for 15 years with no issues except a PACT that would not hold zero.