savage bolt question

[queen_stick]

What exactly is happening at the very top of the bolt lift in a savage 110,long) action?

The reason for the question... I had about 10 out of 30 rounds yesterday at the range, where the bolt would lift like normal until the very end of the upward travel. It would stop, and I had to use some serious force to get it to come up the last little bit. A couple of times, I was seriously questioning if I should be pulling on the bolt that hard.,I'm shooting a 6.5-284, 140grn bullets, 51.8grns of 4831sc, seated just touching the lands).

I don't see any pressure signs on the cases, so I don't think that's an issue.

2nd question... what am I doing wrong with my loads to cause this,what's causing the hard lift)?

Any help would be appreciated.

Walt

 

[rayjay]

This is whats known as hard extraction aka the click at the top of bolt lift. Could be caused by several problems such as:

your sizer die not sizing the bottom of the case enough

neck sizing without bumping back the shoulders and sizing the body

slightly undersized chamber

too hot loads

some more I am forgetting.

Go over to the homepage and read the article on the Harrells sizing die for a way to check to see if your sizing die is sizing the case body enough.

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks for the quick response rayjay. 'the click at the top of the bolt' is great description of what I'm getting, although it's more like a 'thud' once it releases since I'm hanging off of the bolt trying to get it to go.... I hate doing that!

 

[queen_stick]

Hey rayjay, which article are you referencing? I can't seem to find it.

Walt

 

[rayjay]

It's actually in the 6PPC Cartridge Guide, sorry. Here is the pertinent text:

Most of us can't afford such a collection of dies, so you want to start with a good basic full-length die that brings in the shoulder a little less than one-thousandth. To check if your die is sizing properly, measure the diameter of a fired case right at the base of the shoulder and lock the calipers. Then run the case through the full-length sizing die. Put the calipers back on the sized case and then slide them down. The calipers should slide one-quarter to one-third of the way down the case. If the calipers can slide to the middle of the case, your die is sizing too much.

 

[queen_stick]

I don't know if this is the article rayjay referenced but I found some interesting info in this article - http://www.6mmbr.com/CarstensenJLC01.html

'If the action bolt is clicking or popping at the top of the bolt lift, it indicates that the brass is too big near the base. Once you start getting this, you might as well throw the brass in the garbage, as it will be impossible to stop when using full power loads. I think this is the most common complaint with 6mm BR or 6 PPC chamberings. If the bolt closes and opens hard throughout the whole stroke without the pop at the top, this indicates the shoulder needs to be pushed back.'


Is this normal with the 6.5-284? How many firings can expect on lapua brass? This only started after I ran the 4x-fired brass through my body die. Is it the 5th firing that caused it, or improper body sizing, like rayjay mentioned?

I know, I have a ton of questions... new guy trying to figure it all out!

Walt

 

[queen_stick]

It's actually in the 6PPC Cartridge Guide, sorry. Here is the pertinent text:

Most of us can't afford such a collection of dies, so you want to start with a good basic full-length die that brings in the shoulder a little less than one-thousandth. To check if your die is sizing properly, measure the diameter of a fired case right at the base of the shoulder and lock the calipers. Then run the case through the full-length sizing die. Put the calipers back on the sized case and then slide them down. The calipers should slide one-quarter to one-third of the way down the case. If the calipers can slide to the middle of the case, your die is sizing too much.

Just tried that. It goes down about a quarter of the case.

 

[watercam]

On a related note - if the fired cases are expanding only .001',as opposed to .0025' - .003' on my other rifles) and the cases are hard to extract AFTER 10 - 15 rounds slow or rapid fire,i.e. the chamber is hot and expanded) but not before, is the chamber undersized?

 

[Rustystud]

Understanding the bolt lift timing of a Savage.

The bolt handle is machined to fit onto the back of the bolt body This gives it a fixed position in relation to the bolt head and lugs. This is one part of the timing equation. The second part of the bolt timing issue is the relationship of the cocking piece/cocking piece pin and the cocking ramp in the bolt body. The third part of the bolt timing equation is the relationship of the caming surface on the bolt handle and rear baffle this is also known as the primary extraction.

Because the bolt parts are machined surfaces thay can be cut at the wrong angles or angles that are not optiminal. In other words can be improved on.

Making adjustment in the lug ramps, cocking ramp, and the primary extraction can greatly improve the bolt lift problems with Savage bolt actions.

Center alignment, friction reduction and spring tension adjustment can also greatly improve the Savage bolt lift.

Nat Lambeth

 

[queen_stick]

Understanding the bolt lift timing of a Savage.

The bolt handle is machined to fit onto the back of the bolt body This gives it a fixed position in relation to the bolt head and lugs. This is one part of the timing equation. The second part of the bolt timing issue is the relationship of the cocking piece/cocking piece pin and the cocking ramp in the bolt body. The third part of the bolt timing equation is the relationship of the caming surface on the bolt handle and rear baffle this is also known as the primary extraction.

Because the bolt parts are machined surfaces thay can be cut at the wrong angles or angles that are not optiminal. In other words can be improved on.

Making adjustment in the lug ramps, cocking ramp, and the primary extraction can greatly improve the bolt lift problems with Savage bolt actions.

Center alignment, friction reduction and spring tension adjustment can also greatly improve the Savage bolt lift.

Nat Lambeth

Nat:

Thanks for the info! I'll have to chew on that for a bit to get it to stick... there's a lot more going on there than I realized.

I had my action trued/timed by Sharp Shooter Supply... I wasn't exactly sure what was meant by 'timed' when I got the work done,I never asked), but I think I'm starting to understand it.

This game is frustrating, and much more in-depth than I could have imagined. That may be why I like it so much?

Walt

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks to everyone who replied so far - your help is much appreciated.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be throwing out the brass that's giving me trouble, so I'm not too worried about it, but I would love to figure out what happened here.,not throwing out, but setting aside, and retiring from the firing line for now)

I put the cases that were hard to eject back into the chamber, and it's difficult to close. The bolt also lifts stiff, then pops real hard at the top of the lift,ejection). I've measured the cases that do NOT do this, and the cases that do.... I can not for the life of me figure out any difference between one that's stuck, and one that's not.

I'm measuring as carefully and consistent as I can get, and I've found nothing different... It's pissin me off!

Is there something that I need to measure that I may be missing? Is there yet another tool to help measure something on the case that I need to figure this out?

Walt

 

[rayjay]

I would try annealing the case neck/shoulder area. In the last 8 months or so I have become a convert. I am using the molten lead method.

Some people will tell you that annealing the cases will not cure hard extraction but after I annealed my cases the incidence of the dreaded click was cut down from 6 or 8 of my cases to maybe one or two. I plan on discarding the clickers. The problem is that I don't discover it until I am in a match and I use Viper drop ports so the clickers get mixed in with the rest of that target's fired cases

 

[queen_stick]

thanks rayjay.

I'll bust out the torch and try it on a couple of the cases. It will be my first time trying to anneal, so we'll see how this goes....

 

[rayjay]

Read ALL the articles over on the homepage .... before not after

 

[queen_stick]

Read ALL the articles over on the homepage .... before not after

Already in the plans this evening rayjay! I'm not one of those guys....

I know there's a ton of info on annealing in this forum as well.

I've done some research on annealing in the past, but I'll need a refresher before jumping in.

Walt

 

[queen_stick]

Rayjay:

I annealed a couple cases, and I believe I did it successfully?,I polished the brass to a high gloss finish, rotated through the flame for about 7 seconds, quenched in bucket of cold water, then had a dried case that was still glossy, and had color differentiation just below the shoulder all the way up to the mouth.) I figured this was pretty close to being correct based on this article - http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html, and of course other sources, like some old threads in the forums.

Now I have a stupid question... Now that I have them annealed, do I need to load the brass and shoot it to see if it clears up the trouble? After I annealed the brass, I realized that I'm not sure how that's going to help anything unless full length sized again.,That's what I'm thinking anyway...) ???

Also, I neck sized the brass, after I annealed it, and it's still tight in the chamber. I think the case head is getting stuck, not the shoulder/neck/top half of the body. If my assumption is correct that the case head is stuck, then would you still recommend annealing?,from what I've read, annealing doesn't affect the case head... if it does, then you've done it wrong.)


Thanks in advance,

Walt

 

[rayjay]

I would bump the shoulder back .002' compared to a fired case and then load it and shoot it and see how the extraction feels. Your brass may be too big in the web and if this is the case you are screwed and will need new brass.

 

[queen_stick]

I just tried one more thing...

I colored the head of a case with a sharpie, stuck in the chamber, and had a hard time ejecting it. the colored area had no marks that I could find... I looked at it very closely.

I then colored the top half of the case, from about mid shoulder, down to the middle of the case, and chambered the piece of brass. That showed some interesting results!

I have one scratch about .200' long, from the edge of the shoulder, down in to the body.,Starts at the bottom of the shoulder where the case body begins, and goes down the body on a slight angle, for a total length of about .200') Directly across from the 'scratch,' on the other side of the case, is a rub mark that took the color off. the rub mark is very small, and is right on the line where the body meets the shoulder.

Based on this primitive test, I think I may have a burr in my chamber. I looked at another case, that I didn't color with the sharpie, but also extracts hard, and I can see multiple scratches of the same length and position.,from trying that case in the chamber multiple times). I then looked at every piece of fired brass that I have, including 1x fired, and can see slight marks on the case body... the exact same marks that show up clearly on the cases that are hard to extract.

I think rayjay was right that annealing would reduce the extraction effort, but root-cause of the trouble can not be fixed with annealing. I have to get the rig over to the smith and get chamber polished/deburred.... I don't really want to try that my self.

Sorry for typing a book... I'm kind of thinking out loud in this thread.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Am I headed in the right direction?

Walt

 

[rayjay]

You don't want to hear this, BUT, I sure do like having a Hawkeye borescope. I know it is too much money [ unless you have already bought a lathe and milling machine and several BR rifles and extra bbls and reamers and yada yada yada ]. Being able to closely inspect the chamber, throat and bore is worth it imo. The investment will last you a lifetime and can save you a lot of aggravation.

 

[queen_stick]

You don't want to hear this, BUT, I sure do like having a Hawkeye borescope. I know it is too much money [ unless you have already bought a lathe and milling machine and several BR rifles and extra bbls and reamers and yada yada yada ]. Being able to closely inspect the chamber, throat and bore is worth it imo. The investment will last you a lifetime and can save you a lot of aggravation.

I knew that was coming... I'm not sure I'm ready to take the dive on something like that yet, though I'm quickly learning that you're absolutely right. I'll hold off and make sure that I'm good and settled in to this hobby before investing in to something like that. Just a flippin carry case for one of those things is $200... come on!

Anyway, thanks for the help rayjay; you even got me motivated to learn how to anneal!

I'll let you know what I come up with with this extraction problem, hopefully sooner than later.

Walt