Safest Bolt Action....????

[fguffey]

Headspace was measured and recorded. Shoulder was bumped back two thousands.

Another member was trying to approach me in a manner rather rude a few days ago, he said he would have to take my for it, and then another member said he would not trust and or believe anyone that claimed they were taking my word for 'it'. I understand the length of the chamber was measured from the shoulder to the bolt face, I understand there was an attempt to move the shoulder back .002", that is the problem I have when sizing, I find it impossible to move the shoulder back, I can shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but when I finish I do not have the same shoulder I started with.

The case in the picture is a classic example of case head separation, case head separation happens when the case head separates from the case body, no one ever ask; "How does that happen?" If it happens to me it is caused by the case locking onto the chamber when fired with clearance, if the clearance is between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber the case can not separate: But if the clearance is between the bolt face and the case head expect the case to stretch and or separate between the case head and case body. The case pictured was fired 3 times.

And then there is that thing with stretch and or flow, or is it both? I have fired many rounds that got longer from the shoulder to the case head, when that happens I expect the neck to get shorter from the shoulder/neck juncture to the end of the neck. The one thing I do not want to happen to the neck is stay the same length, if the neck stays the same length I can count of the case stretching between the case head and case body.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

You think? That's not what real life experience has shown even where the two cartridges are the same calibre, eg 222 or 223 Rem in a 223 Rem Magnum chamber.

You think

Are there any adults that act like adults on this forum,

I know, I have 3 8MM06 rifles, I took one of them to the firing range to test fire. I chambered a 8mm57 round, closed the bolt, aimed and the fired. I opened the bolt and then ejected an 8mm06 case with a very short neck the case only had a hint of a neck.

So Laurie if you are not a child and if you can respond like an adult tell me where the neck went. And you will not be wasting other members time because they did not disagree with your first claim about high pressure and too much head space. The difference in length from the shoulder to the case head between the 8mm06 and 8MM57 is .127".

F. Guffey

 

[joshb]

Ok, Guffey. I've had enough of your drivel. Laurie is one of our most knowledgeable and esteemed members and he actually "contributes" great information to this forum. Please pack your bags and move. I'm using my ignore option. I've had it.

 

[Laurie]

Ah but Mr Guffey, you know far far more than the late Brig General Julian S Hatcher whom I quoted. He ... and many others .... have also seen and reported on the likely consequences of firing military 7.92X57 IS cartridges in the M1903 Springfield .30-06. After all Gen Hatcher was just a mere highly trained Springfield Armory ordnance officer with a lifetime of using and inspecting firearms, and for that matter investigating the accidents that wrecked them ... so what would he know?

Sure, in such circumstances, a case may fireform radically. But then again it may not ... it may fail, and if the latter may do so in such in such a manner that it will more likely than not produce pretty disastrous consequences to the detriment of both rifle and its user.

A mere 127 thou' headspace? (Assuming your figures are correct and frankly I can't be bothered checking.) If that's acceptable to you, it certainly isn't to me. Then there is the little matter of pushing a 0.323" diameter bullet down a nominally 0.300/0.3080" barrel. Presumably you'd regard that as a minor matter too. The point about shooting an 8X57 cartridge in a .30-06 rifle (not an 8mm-06 as you quote) is the combination of the two factors - oversize bullet = substantially increased pressures whose dangers are exacerbated by excess headspace.

Just so as it's not just me at odds with you on this, your own institute of technical standards - SAAMI - is too. It publishes a list of unsafe chambering and cartridge combinations:

http://www.saami.org/specifications...1-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

I suggest you scroll down to .30-06 and check the list of unsafe cartridges for it. Presumably that list was put together by people who aren't 'adult' either, and SAAMI is wasting forum members' time with it too.

You know too that when I was a child, and that's a good many decades ago sadly, my mother always used to instruct me that courtesy and politeness cost nothing and eased one's passage through life and helped human society work smoothly. I'm afraid I have to ask you in the light of your apparently deliberately rude language in post #62, and on many other posts and threads on this forum, whether rudeness is a congenital condition in your case or whether it is a result of a lifetime's work in honing your language (and in the absence of face to face contact one has to presume your personality as well) to such a fine and unpleasant pitch?

 

[M-61]

Just so as it's not just me at odds with you on this,

First: it is not you & him. He is at odds with everyone all the time.
Second: Don't fall into his quagmire of word games he plays.
My fear is you leave the site, and take a guess who comes out on the short end? Me and others who do learn and enjoy your posts.

 

[Laurie]

Don't worry - I enjoy this site far too much - and learn far too much from it myself - to be driven off. (A shame some others than yourself might say ) I decided years ago that in shooting, ballistics and handloading there are often many ways to skin each and every cat, and that some rules seem to be riddled with exceptions. It's part of the fun of the game, and it tickles my weird sense of humour to have these various dogmatic characters around who tell you that X is black and black only and y is likewise the whitest shade of white.

Incidentally, Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistics outfit is doing all sorts of mythbusters type tests on ballistics and handloading topics and publishing their results in Bryan's 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting' books. Very interesting to those willing to be at least partially open to different views on these subjects.

 

[M-61]

That's an answer I can live with happily.

 

[fyrewall]

I quickly went through all of the previous stuff. My thoughts for the safest bolt action - the Rem 700. It has a plunger type spring loaded ejector that keeps the primer away from the bolt face until the bolt is locked up, it has a hole in the bolt body to bleed off gas entering past the firing pin, and "the 3 rings of steel" receiver, barrel recess, and bolt face recess. The bolt shroud might be bigger but I would expect Rem engineers had that aspect in mind. There is a gas escape hole through the right side of the receiver ring.

Some control feed actions do not have a bolt lock to keep the striker cocked until the bolt is closed - Ruger M77 MKII but that feature is found in the controlled feed M98 and M70 Win.

An interesting action is the Jap type 38; it has a sort of convoluted barrel face/recess that sort of mimics the M700 in function. There are 2 holes through the top of the receiver ring, in a V shaped arrangement to bleed off gas. I hear the heat treatment is real good. Production of the type 38 stopped some time ago - real ugly but apparently strong.

My thoughts on multi lug actions are that not all the lugs mate or touch but would flex enough without shattering for other lugs to take up forces.

Watch what you put into your loaded ammo.

 

[fguffey]

Ah but Mr Guffey, you know far far more than the late Brig General Julian S Hatcher whom I quoted. He ...

Thank you, I said I have 3 8MM06 rifles, for those that do not understand that is a Mauser type rifle that has been chambered to 8MM/06, I do not have a problem with Hatcher, I do find a lot fault with reloaders that start a sentence with "Hatcher said...." . This is not a test but you seem to be having trouble with what I said 2 days ago. For other members: I did not fire an 8mm bullet in a 30 cal. barrel that time, I did on another occasion when I was testing a rifle that was sold to me as suspect, I paid $25.00 for the rifle, the rifle was not suspect but the case showed all the evidence of having been abused. The case head was not crushed enough to expose the case body above the case head.

And then there is what you said/claimed: Excessive head space increases pressure. I got out of the habit of using the phrase 'head space' many years ago, I have no infatuations with head space. Increasing the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face increases clearance if the length of the case is not increased. Time: Time is a factor, pressure inside the case can not get serious until the case fills the chamber, when I fired the 8MM57 ammo in the 8MM06 chamber the case had to fill the chamber, that took time.

Again, the case was ejected with a hint of a neck, the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head increased the shoulder on the 8mm57 cases did not move, it became part of the case body and the new shoulder was formed from part of the neck, I understand, reloaders are infatuated with moving the shoulder but I find it impossible to move the shoulder when I am forming and or sizing; BECAUSE?? I am the only reloader that understands if the shoulder moves the case has to stretch, in an effort to help someone understand how difficult it is to move the shoulder back I turned cases into accordions/cases with bellows. I did explain to them I could move the shoulder back without turning the case body into an accordion but I ask; WHY?

F. Guffey

 

[John Russell]

One of my best Buddies & his wife & best friend shoot some high dollar custom bolt action rifles..They are very similar to the Rem 700 pattern..I checked my Rem 700 I can't see or figure out where the high pressure gas & brass bits would go " IN The Case Of A Case Head Failure"..I suspect a standard 6mmbr found it's way into a Dasher chamber.."Big Opps there" Long story short, the best friend/his buddy is OK.. He ended up with a bloody face & arm.The action stayed together, just the hot gas & brass bits escaped..Safety Glass's saved his eyes...Can some of you please tell me which bolt action design is the safest to have such a bad event happen in ??? I searched the net & this site...I'm not finding much data....Thanks in Advance, please be extra safe...Mike in Ct

I can't speak to other actions... but this is a Remington 700 action in 22-250, and the owner intended to load a Hodgdon ball powder. Bad habits were the cause. Powders were just put on the same shelf in no order. Both were the little black 1# jugs, and, what the hell, almost all ball powders look the same, right? So he picked up a black jug of pistol powder instead of rifle powder.

22-250 loaded with pistol powder.

The bolt lugs and and the receiver lug abutments were fine, and headspace did not change. If the owner wanted to use a cleaning rod for an extractor, he could have used the action after it was cleaned up.

The shooter was shaken, but uninjured.

He got a new bolt and replaced the barrel... the rifle is currently in use.

He now keeps pistol powders in a different place in his loading area.

 

[mikeinct]

Thank You Mr Russel...From 1 prisoner of the communist State of Ct to another...I'm going to have a gunsmith re-barrel & re-stock an old 700 action I have on hand for Mrs. Mike in Ct to use for long range bench-rest..After all these comments & hearing first hand from very educated shooters. [& second hand from Kelby's guy]..I no longer have the fears about that design I felt two weeks ago...Thank You All, Mike in Ct

 

[swd]

Massive excessive head space/clearance? The clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber would be a forgiving factor.

F. Guffey

I saw the whole rifle first hand and I can assure you there was nothing forgiving about stuffing a .308" bullet down a .264" bore! The stock was a completely killed, the bottom metal looked like a propeller, the bolt was locked up with what was left of the extractor sticking out. The barrel had to be unscrewed to get the action opened up. The only forgiving part was the guy got away with only a few scratches and a new pair of underwear.

 

[KevinThomas]

Working at a sporting goods store in SoCal many lifetimes ago, we once had a gentlemen (I refrain from using the term "idiot") who returned a thoroughly destroyed Browning Bolt Action chambered in 7mm Rem Mag. The guy wasn't a handloader, and claimed this happened with factory ammunition. He further claimed that he'd thrown the remaining ammunition away immediately as a safety concern, and had neither remaining samples, nor the lot number of the ammo involved. After some dickering back and forth, we agree to send the rifle back to Browning for their analysis. We did so, and Browning responded superbly going well above and beyond the call of duty in this case. After a careful examination of the bolt, they agreed that the rifle had indeed been destroyed by factory ammo. Of the wrong caliber. This was somewhere right around the whole Remington Charlie-Foxtrot over the renaming of the 7mm Remington Express to the 280 Remington, neither of which (same cartridges, exactly) have anything whatsoever to do with the 7mm Remington Magnum. As the good Mr. Hall and I had discussed, and as I related in one of my earlier postings, it isn't just excessive pressures that can damage or destroy guns, or injure shooters. That can also happen with substantially lower pressures that manage to find their way into areas that weren't meant to contain them. I've seen many fully separated cases, actually both incipient head separations and full breaks, that didn't cause a bit of trouble. In those case, the brass was obviously soft enough to allow it to obturate, fully sealing the chamber and acting as the gasket that a case essentially is. In this instance, the case walls simply had to move too far, and couldn't seal the chamber, releasing gases into regions that it wasn't meant to go. The result was a destroyed rifle, and a brutal lesson in ammunition nomenclature for the shooter. Browning returned the rifle, rebuilt as new, with a nicely worded request to educate the guy.

 

[dave@aDave]

The Remington 700's would have to be a pretty decent action just because there are so many around.
However, I am an admirer of Mr. Mauser's Large Ring Model 98 (FN version).
If I was really concerned about pressure and blowback I would employ a Welin breech block. They seem to have a good safety record

 

[fguffey]

Ah but Mr Guffey, you know far far more than the late Brig General Julian S Hatcher whom I quoted. He ... and many others .... have also seen and reported on the likely consequences of firing military 7.92X57 IS cartridges in the M1903 Springfield .30-06. After all Gen Hatcher was just a mere highly trained Springfield Armory ordnance officer with a lifetime of using and inspecting firearms, and for that matter investigating the accidents that wrecked them ... so what would he know?

So what would he know? He would know to avoid looking like a fool he would learn to read and comprehend. Laurie, you are too desperate for attention, I will try to type slower, I have an 8MM06 reamer, it is used to reamer the 8mm57 chamber to 8MM/06 (typing slower) the 8MM/06 reamer lengthens the chamber of the 8mm57 chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Now slowly going back to Hatcher, he did the same thing with the 30/06 chamber, he lengthen the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face .060" +/- and then he chambered 30/06 ammo and fired the ammo in his new creation thinking the case would suffer case head separation. After all, reloaders on this reloading forum are infatuated with case head separation, Hatcher's cases did not suffer case head separation with .060" clearance and I did not suffer case head separation with .127" clearance. And it must have been a miracle that the firing pin made it to the primer etc. etc,

And you thought I said I chambered an 8mm57 round in a 30/06 chamber? After that I took the time to explain how a shooter locked up a 25/06 rifle with a 308 Winchester round. It took 2 hours for the North Texas smith to open the bolt and then remove the case. And they said to me: "The bullet must have been 3 inches long when it left the barrel". And I knew they would not understand the answer.

F. Guffey