The worst blow up I've ever seen was a Weatherby, total destruction leaving the sling swivels and butt pad as literally the only remaining usable parts on the rifle. The receiver opened up completely, six of the nine locking lugs sheared off as though they'd been removed on a mill. The remaining three appeared to be totally untouched. That's one of the big problems with multiple lug designs; if they're not all completely engaged (and they almost never are), when the ones that are holding the pressure give way, there's a "running start" at those that survived. The results usually are pretty ugly. That one was bad, and the guy sucked up the bolt in his face. The guy was a poster child for factory ammo, and should have NEVER been allowed anywhere near a reloading press.
Safest Bolt Action....????
- Thread starter mikeinct
- Start date
The worst blow up I've ever seen was a Weatherby, total destruction leaving the sling swivels and butt pad as literally the only remaining usable parts on the rifle. The receiver opened up completely, six of the nine locking lugs sheared off as though they'd been removed on a mill. The remaining three appeared to be totally untouched. That's one of the big problems with multiple lug designs; if they're not all completely engaged (and they almost never are), when the ones that are holding the pressure give way, there's a "running start" at those that survived. The results usually are pretty ugly. That one was bad, and the guy sucked up the bolt in his face. The guy was a poster child for factory ammo, and should have NEVER been allowed anywhere near a reloading press.
I was at that match and after looking at those pictures, I've got a couple observations. On a Remington action (I realize this is a BAT however the logic is the same), the distance from the face of the bolt to the face of the barrel is 0.155" (slightly more or less depending on the action) with another 0.005 to 0.010" added for clearance which would give around 0.165" of unsupported case head. I have a 6mm BR case in my hand and when I measure from the base up 0.165", it's located at the very top of the extractor groove on the case. That means the case is fully supported by the chamber to the top of the extractor groove. From the looks of that ruptured case (the location of where the brass expanded at the base), the face of that barrel is more like 0.220 or so from the face of the bolt. That means to me that's there's about 0.050 or 0.060" of unsupported case wall right where that case ruptured. Now I may be totally off base, but I'd for sure have another gunsmith take a look at that rifle before firing it again.
madmixerman
Gold $$ Contributor
This is the case that failed in the match the OP was referring to at the beginning of this thread. Third firing.
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Yikes !!!! That is a clean cut off...This begs the question again..which action design [rem 700, custom clone, savage, winchester ??} is safest when this happens ??? Mike in ct
madmixerman
Gold $$ Contributor
Although I like right bolt left port, I think right port right bolt was be the safest for a right handed shooter. Any blow back would go away from your face.
carlsbad
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
Yes, lots of people either forget about that shroud or don't recognise its purpose - to deflect escaping gas and particles away from the shooter's face. The author of an article on this subject that I read many years back, can't remember who now, said that if you reread very early 20th century firearms literature and professional journals, it paints a sorry picture of widespread case-head and even more so primer failures, injured or even destroyed eyes due to the inadequacies of contemporary cartridge components manufacturing. (Peter Paul Mauser himself lost an eye when testing a prototype self-loading rifle he'd designed - I assume that was after the '98's introduction.)
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
I saw a 98 Mauser chambered in 264 Win Mag that had a 308 round fired in it. The guy made the mistake of having 2 different kinds of ammo in his pocket. The 308 bullet actually swaged down and made it through the barrel. It blew the bottom metal out, sent pieces of the extractor flying, grenaded the stock and of course gas every where EXCEPT straight back because of the classic 98 shroud. The shooter had minor injuries, some small cuts from everything that went flying.
The shooter and a friend of his came into my buddies shop who built all pissed off threating to to sue for damages and all sorts of bull. The tone of it being he was going to owe them LOTS of money. My friend pulled the barrel off to get to what was left of the fired case and much to their surprise was the faint remains of "308 Win" left on the case head and bolt face. They got real quiet real fast and then admitted they had been shooting 2 rifles, a 308 and the 264.
The shooter and a friend of his came into my buddies shop who built all pissed off threating to to sue for damages and all sorts of bull. The tone of it being he was going to owe them LOTS of money. My friend pulled the barrel off to get to what was left of the fired case and much to their surprise was the faint remains of "308 Win" left on the case head and bolt face. They got real quiet real fast and then admitted they had been shooting 2 rifles, a 308 and the 264.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Some years ago, Ferris Pendell came out with his own action with the designation of "FDC", there are a few around. I had three. In the magazine Precision Shooting, they showed pictures of where 8 bullets had been driven down the bore, and a full charge was fired. They put some kind of great big barrel on the action, but the action did not give way when they were through firing.
They were a fairly ugly action compared to my Hall M's and Panda's and I eventually let them go. There was a guy in New York State that was collecting these actions, I think he got two of mine and a friend has the other.
They were a fairly ugly action compared to my Hall M's and Panda's and I eventually let them go. There was a guy in New York State that was collecting these actions, I think he got two of mine and a friend has the other.
That is akin to the classic GI move of either accidentally or deliberately (to 'see what will happen') chambering a 7.92X57mm IS round in a .30-06 M1903 or M1 rifle - the mix of oversize bullet and massively excessive headspace - only even worse in this (308 v 264 Win Mag) case!
According to Hatcher and others the full pressure military loaded 8mm Mauser round would invariably destroy an M1903 action, usually with shooter injury, so this shows the benefit from the classic '98 design amongst rifles of that era anyway. How the '98 compares to a Remington 700 or other good modern action, I just wouldn't know. If nothing else, post WW2 engineers had to find ways of making strong, safe actions but at much less cost than the late 19th / early 20th century models. Interestingly, Terry Wieland in his books on Dangerous Game Cartridges and Rifles says that the '98 action is still the preferred starting point for those who build custom bolt-actions for this purpose. There are a few now being manufactured from new again thanks to CNC machining bringing costs down and reducing the need for hand-fitting of the parts.
Massive excessive head space/clearance? The clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber would be a forgiving factor.
F. Guffey
There was a shooter that volunteered to zero a rifle, by the time he made it to a North Texas gun shop he had decided he was going to sue all involved. He locked the bolt with the first round. It took the smith over 2 hours to open the bolt. He asked to see the receipt for the new ammo and what was left of the ammo in the box. He had purchased a 20 round box or Remington 308 W for a 25/06 Winchester Model 70.
The guys around the shop were taking bets? It sounded like: "I'll bet them bullets were 3" long when they left the barrel".
F. Guffey
The guys around the shop were taking bets? It sounded like: "I'll bet them bullets were 3" long when they left the barrel".
F. Guffey
That is case head separation. A reloader needs to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and he needs to know how to off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case, I am the fan of reducing all that case travel.
Case travel: That is something else a reloader needs to know, NMKID posted a picture of a case that did a lot of traveling. I tested a receiver that was sold to me as being suspect, I loaded a few rounds up like Jackson's men in New Orleans. After testing the rifle new primers would drop thorough the flash hole. The primer pocket would almost hold a 30 cal. bullet. The receiver was not suspect, I purchased a total of 4 of the suspect rifles.
F. Guffey
And I ask: "Who measures?". And the answer is always; 'ME'. The Most common case head thickness around here is .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. My favorite case head thickness is .260". When something goes seriously wrong and the case head is crushed and expands the extra .060" is a safety factor but that creates another problem. Time after time after time I have said there is something about the sequence of events that reloaders do not understand between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel.
And then it goes back to; "Who measures?"
F. Guffey
madmixerman
Gold $$ Contributor
Headspace was measured and recorded. Shoulder was bumped back two thousands.
You th
You think? That's not what real life experience has shown even where the two cartridges are the same calibre, eg 222 or 223 Rem in a 223 Rem Magnum chamber.
You think? That's not what real life experience has shown even where the two cartridges are the same calibre, eg 222 or 223 Rem in a 223 Rem Magnum chamber.
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