Safest Bolt Action....????

[madmixerman]

Quick question here; did the rifle in question have an M16 or SAKO extractor installed rather than the original Remington style extractor? I had an interesting afternoon talking with Dave Hall (Hall Actions) about this, and he mentioned that converting the M700 over to use these extractors was the fastest way to defeat one of Remington's more important safety features, the "three rings of steel" that others have already mentioned. Majorly overpressure loads that an actually swell the action will "engage" this safety feature as each successive ring expands into the others, sealing the action tightly. The addition of that extractor provides an easy escape once you've reached those levels of pressure, and you're venting it into an area that wasn't designed to serve that purpose. As Dave said, it takes shockingly little pressure to destroy an action when it's directed into areas that weren't designed to contain gasses such as this. Just a thought, but since that conversation, I've never used such and extractor on any of my M700s ever again.

It was a Panda action shooting a 6BRA. It blew the back of the case off. First time loaded( was fireformed to the bra case prior) as BRA with new die. Sharp edge on die cut a circle on brass that wasn't noticeable when loaded. We think that did it but not sure yet. Still checking things further.

 

[LHSmith]

Kevin, I'm waiting to hear more about the action in question...I know two of those big dollar units are standard unaltered bolt faces....I want to use one of my standard rem 700 actions to build my wife a Bench Rest type single shot rifle..But now I'm wondering how safe it is...if a case blows.. I want to know she is safe behind that rig...mike

Back in the early years of short range BR, before the proliferation of custom actions which actually mimic the Remington 700, the 722/ 700 actions were the prominent action used from the 60's through the mid 90's. I am not aware of shooters suffering injury due to case failures using them.......and many pushed them near peak pressures. Actually I have never witnessed or heard of any failures with those who had Sako extractors installed in my region here in the Northeast. I have a 30 BR hunter class gun with a Sako extractor and have never felt uneasy about using it. FWIW I would never fire any firearm without safety glasses.

 

[carlsbad]

The remington 700 uses "3 rings of steel" and if the clearances are kept tight, the gases will be slowed a lot and the brass almost totally captured.

The bolt diameter is .695 to .700. I like to cut the recess in the barrel that it fits into at .704 to .706. I've seen them as big as .740 to accomodate M-16 style extractors. I don't like that.

The depth of the recess in the barrel I make just .004 deeper than the bolt nose. this doesn't leave room for grit and grime. I'm talking a bench rifle. Keep it clean.

These tight clearances will go a long way to protect you.

--Jerry

 

[carlsbad]

A Wetherby mark 5? That is what i have been told is one of if not the strongest action there is. This was the older japaness made ones.

I built a 300 norma magnum for a guy who likes to run his loads hot using this action. It has 3 lugs and each is a triple. Very strong. it also incorporates the 3 rings of steel design. However, the extractor on a large magnum case opens beyond the diameter of the bolt so IIRC I had to make the bolt nose clearance .720.

He eventually gave up trying to get it to feed right. That's why I like Rem/clones--thousands of stock and equipment options.

--Jerry

 

[Liven The Dream]

How about the one which all came about ?
The year 1898 the Place Germany?

 

[JasonT]

Perhaps there should be a distinction between "strongest" and "most forgiving" action...

Strength:
Due to the increased size, material, hardness, and toughness of the Barnard P action, its yield strength in most critical areas FAR outweighs the stresses put on it, perhaps by a factor of 3 or more I'd guess. In addition, the lack of lugways, super-tight raceway to bolt fit, and fully-encased firing pin mean that a blanked primer or ruptured case/head would be almost completely contained.

From an engineering point of view, I'd say that the only ways to increase the strength of the Barnard P while maintaining the same size/weight are to
A) make it from 300M steel hardened to 53-55Hrc
B) change from a coned to a recessed bolt nose
C) go to a Remington-style extractor or perhaps a hybrid extractor design

The most forgiving:
From an engineering standpoint, I'd agree that the Remington-type of design is the most...ermm...oops-proof design in general.

Just my opinions

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

On a 700, if a primer is pierced, gasses can travel through he bolt body and exit at the shroud.

That's why it is called a shroud.

 

[Gb300wm]

My bets on a weatherby mkv. I have a couple of them and they’re stout.

 

[dskogman]

The

It was a Panda action shooting a 6BRA. It blew the back of the case off. First time loaded( was fireformed to the bra case prior) as BRA with new die. Sharp edge on die cut a circle on brass that wasn't noticeable when loaded. We think that did it but not sure yet. Still checking things further.

This happened next to me to one of our club members and scared the crap out of everyone involved. To clear things up it was a Dasher in a Bat action similar to the OP. The base section blew out and high pressure gas and tiny bits of brass escaped around the bolt head and out the left port peppering the shooter's check with powder and brass. Luckily no brass hit his eye. It did not appear to escape out the back of the bolt or thru the firing pin hole. I don't think it had a relief port which might have reduced the volume of gas coming out the port.
The brass was on the second firing but some pieces may have been overpressured on the first firing and mistakenly got mixed in with the good brass.
A few observations:

• Always wear safety glasses, no exceptions.
• Throw any overpressured brass in the trash immediately
• The left port for a right handed shooter aims any escaping gas directly at the shooter face. A right load port would have directed it away from his face.
• If a case ruptures 50,000 psi gas is going to come out somewhere. Tight tolerances will not stop it. It needs to go where it will do the least damage.
• This has happened to more than a few dashers.

A few pics of the case:

 

[ImBIllT]

My bet is that it was modified for a Sako extractor.

Not mine or my buddies. My first .223AI I didn't realize that Win SR's were softer than a CCI BR4 and got gas in the face. It didn't really hurt, just scared the crap out of me. By the time that has gets around the firing pin into the bolt, then past the spring and out around the cocking piece the pressure has dropped considerably and the shroud then redirects it at a 90 degree angle. Unless it's a gross overpressure it's not likely to do serious harm, but it'll make you check your pants. My buddy had the same thing occur on his first ever reloads when he went a little crazy deburring flash holes.

 

[ImBIllT]

The

This happened next to me to one of our club members and scared the crap out of everyone involved. To clear things up it was a Dasher in a Panda action similar to the OP. The base section blew out and high pressure gas and tiny bits of brass escaped around the bolt head and out the left port peppering the shooter's check with powder and brass. Luckily no brass hit his eye. It did not appear to escape out the back of the bolt or thru the firing pin hole. I don't think it had a relief port which might have reduced the volume of gas coming out the port.
The brass was on the second firing but some pieces may have been overpressured on the first firing and mistakenly got mixed in with the good brass.
A few observations:

• Always wear safety glasses, no exceptions.
• Throw any overpressured brass in the trash immediately
• The left port for a right handed shooter aims any escaping gas directly at the shooter face. A right load port would have directed it away from his face.
• If a case ruptures 50,000 psi gas is going to come out somewhere. Tight tolerances will not stop it. It needs to go where it will do the least damage.
• This has happened to more than a few dashers.

A few pics of the case:
View attachment 1024150 View attachment 1024151

The gas didn't go through the bolt body because the primer didn't fail. The case was defective in some way or improperly supported. Probably the die problem mentioned.

If there is enough distance to travel through tight spaces and there are enough right angles, then the pressure in the barrel will have dropped before the bullet exits.

 

[carlsbad]

The path for brass and gas back to your face is around the bolt nose, between the bolt and the barrel recess, back down the outside of the bolt following the lug channel and exit the rear of the action. If the clearances I described above are tight, the brass will be captured and the gases slowed to where the shooter will be shocked but unharmed. This includes actions modified with a sako extractor since the tight bolt-to-barrel clearances will ensure the extractor components are captured. There have been instances reported when the sako extractor became dislodged and exited the rear of the action with the brass and gases. The clearance to allow this is much looser than I described above. On magnum cartridges, the clearance must be increased to accommodate the opening of the extractor for either sako or M-16 style extractors. If you have to open up this clearance, you should recognize the risk (minor) and be prepared to accept it. In this case, some prefer the M-16 extractor since it is pinned in. You are still subject to gas and brass injuries with the opened clearance.

--Jerry

 

[Webster]

One of my best Buddies & his wife & best friend shoot some high dollar custom bolt action rifles..They are very similar to the Rem 700 pattern..I checked my Rem 700 I can't see or figure out where the high pressure gas & brass bits would go " IN The Case Of A Case Head Failure"..I suspect a standard 6mmbr found it's way into a Dasher chamber.."Big Opps there" Long story short, the best friend/his buddy is OK.. He ended up with a bloody face & arm.The action stayed together, just the hot gas & brass bits escaped..Safety Glass's saved his eyes...Can some of you please tell me which bolt action design is the safest to have such a bad event happen in ??? I searched the net & this site...I'm not finding much data....Thanks in Advance, please be extra safe...Mike in Ct

Was it a reloading mistake? A lot of people want to push the limits.

 

[nakneker]

REM 700 for me!!View attachment 1024085 Don't know what I did, (Ahhh screwed up!) Case was a .270. Cracked my stock at the tang and destroyed the scopes crosshairs.

Glad you were alright!

 

[mikeinct]

Was it a reloading mistake? A lot of people want to push the limits.

Not sure yet...Something went wrong....Shooter has put in some details...mike in ct

 

[brantfredrickson]

Does a Savage rifle have a greater margin of safety with a front baffle just after the bolt head and a rear baffle at the other end of the bolt? I'm thinking the more turns hot high pressure gas from a ruptured cartridge has to make the better you chances are.

 

[AckleymanII]

Long story, short. A good friend was dying of COPD. He was teaching his 11 year old grand son to reload. He set the powder charge 10 grains too heavy of 3031 over max load, 55g Speer in a 22/250. This was fired in a J lock, rem 700 action. The child fired the round, gasses came out everywhere, scared everyone. The child was not wearing safety glasses and there were no metal cuts nor debris in his eyes.

They brought the gun to me after his death, wanted me to sell it for them. I gave them $250 for it as it was a laminated Varmint version. I bought a new bolt for the gun, now a Dasher bbl is screwed in the action. When I unscrewed the barrel, the bolt nose came off in pieces, real scarry stuff.

Bolt nose

Bolt nose

Case head with extractor welded to the rim of the case

case head



Brass and piece of the bolt nose



The three rings of steel kept a lot of crap from flying around, and gas ports on the side of the action are a very, very good thing.

 

[370bc]

As a south paw, how dangerous is it shooting right handed actions? I have always reloaded my own, being very cautious. I have never had any problems with any of factory actions. After all of these years, left handed actions seems strange. I like being on the side of the open bolt if there are any feeding/extraction issues. The gas relief hole does make me think from time to time.

 

[JBT47]

I had an Accuracy International AW. That’s the most robust action that I have experience with.

 

[KevinThomas]

Sorry, a bit late back to the party here, but it looks like the issue I brought up has been pretty well addressed by others. To rehash the conversation a bit, Allen and I had been discussing action failures, and he mentioned the concept behind the Remington "three rings of steel" and how sound it was. I've seen stock M700s horribly abused by handloaders, and still never seen one fail. Modified actions, according to Allen, were an entirely different matter. The metal removed to allow clearance for the new extractor also served as a pathway for free gasses in the case of a serious failure (See photos in the posts above. Yikes!) and allows them to vent in places that pressure was never supposed to be. He quoted the amount of gas pressure needed to do serious damage, and it was shockingly low. This, despite the fact that an unaltered action was good to several times that figure. In any case, I haven't used anything but the stock extractors in any of my M700s ever since. Still have a number of aftermarket extractor kits for them that I need to toss.