Run out question

[270WinDude]

Has anyone experienced what the implications on group size are for typical runout experienced with a Lee collet neck sizing die vs rounds that are sorted or perfectly concentric at 100 to 600 yards? I'm prioritizing my next purchases and concentricity seems like something easy enough to manage.

When I turn the brass in my hands and squeeze the neck between thumb and finger I can feel that it doesn't seem like it's even in thickness and concentricity at the neck. I started cleaning the carbon off my necks which my gun seems to deposit a lot on and that helped a lot, then I started cleaning my dies a lot which helped a little, then I started sizing 3 or so times as I rotate a little each time and that also seems to help but I can still measure and feel a little unevenness. Not sure if it's more effective to buy a concentricity gauge and sort rounds or a neck turner. Eventually I'll get both, just looking at upcoming expenditures.

 

[JohnKielly]

I get the best available concentricity with brass using the Lee Collet die.

Disclaimer: I don't use chamber fitted dies - just factory premium dies from Wilson & Redding.

 

[JFrank]

Ya ever wonder why Wilson does not make concentricity gauges ?
Those cost at least a hundred bucks, arbor press cost the same hundred, Wilson seating die cost the same as any other good die.
Think Wilson say goodbye to runout. Of course there's custom dies too.
Let the flames begin "
J

 

[jim_k]

I get the best available concentricity with brass using the Lee Collet die.

Disclaimer: I don't use chamber fitted dies - just factory premium dies from Wilson & Redding.

I also use the Lee Collet neck sizing die, combined with the body/shoulder bump die from Redding, and I seat everything with the Lee Dead Length bullet seating die, including Hornady 147 ELD-M. My loaded cartridge runout is 0.001", and my base-to-ogive is +/- 0.001" (for bullets which have a bullet BTO of +/- 0.001"). I just finished loading 44 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor today, and did those measurements. To be perfectly honest, 2 of the rounds had almost 0.002" of runout, which is not typical.

 

[XTR]

I own a concentricity tool, it's somewhere in my loading bench, but I haven't used it in yrs.

[disclaimer] I never offer any loading advise to BR shooters. I don't strive for the precision that they do. If you are trying to shoot BR stop here.

John Whidden has noted that bullets with .009 runout have shot national records. (High power shooting if you don't know who John is)
A BR shooter in Oak Ridge who has held many national records at one time or another told me that he could not see .008 on the targets.
Personally I shoot F-TR, and my experience is the same. If your loading technique is reasonably consistent don't worry about it.

If you need to convince yourself, take 10 of your worst and 10 of your best and shoot groups. Then forget where you put that thing.

 

[dreever]

I own a concentricity tool, it's somewhere in my loading bench, but I haven't used it in yrs.

[disclaimer] I never offer any loading advise to BR shooters. I don't strive for the precision that they do. If you are trying to shoot BR stop here.

John Whidden has noted that bullets with .009 runout have shot national records. (High power shooting if you don't know who John is)
A BR shooter in Oak Ridge who has held many national records at one time or another told me that he could not see .008 on the targets.
Personally I shoot F-TR, and my experience is the same. If your loading technique is reasonably consistent don't worry about it.

If you need to convince yourself, take 10 of your worst and 10 of your best and shoot groups. Then forget where you put that thing.

I use a Sinclair Concentricity tool every now and again just to see where I'm at. I like you can not see the difference on the target. I agree about taking ten of the best and ten of the worst, but would add having some one else give them to you to do a blind test. This eliminates the brain from the equation.

I used to shoot score benchrest. One day before leaving for the match I realized I did not have anything loaded. All I had loaded were pulled bullets loaded in my practice brass. Terrible runout that's why they were only used for practice. To make a long story short I shot the best score of my life that day. 250-23X. That changed my whole way of thinking after that.
Same goes for sorting bullets. I had three large plastic lure boxes with compartments all with sorted bullets. Then one day I decided life is short so I stopped sorting. My scores didn't change one bit.
Shooting is as much of a mind game as anything. If it works for you great keep doing it.

Danny

 

[chop house]

[disclaimer] I never offer any loading advise to BR shooters

+100

 

[orbitup]

I also use the Lee Collet neck sizing die, combined with the body/shoulder bump die from Redding, and I seat everything with the Lee Dead Length bullet seating die, including Hornady 147 ELD-M. My loaded cartridge runout is 0.001", and my base-to-ogive is +/- 0.001" (for bullets which have a bullet BTO of +/- 0.001"). I just finished loading 44 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor today, and did those measurements. To be perfectly honest, 2 of the rounds had almost 0.002" of runout, which is not typical.

Did you do any work to the seating stem in the Lee die? The ones I have don't fit VLD type bullets at all.

 

[jimmymac]

IMO, you'll never get rid of the ridges you are feeling after you use the collet die on your brass. When I use the collet die the same thing happens to me in more than one caliber. I can feel the ridges with my fingernail. It hasn't affected accuracy one bit.

Some of the best and most consistent groups I've shot with my PPC have been the result of using a Harrell's bushing die (with no bushing) as a body die, then taking care of the necks with the LCD.

If there was a way to incorporate that routine at a match I'd do it. Unfortunately, time does not permit.

 

[270WinDude]

Did you do any work to the seating stem in the Lee die? The ones I have don't fit VLD type bullets at all.

Mine seats vld perfectly. It wouldn't seat my 110gr v-max though so I wrote lee asking what the issue was and they tracked my purchase and address down and in their response was a statement that they had already shipped me a seating stem that would seat the bullets. My issue wasn't a ring on the bullet, the stem simply would not push the vmax low enough and I even tried ghetto rigging to no avail.

 

[orbitup]

Mine seats vld perfectly. It wouldn't seat my 110gr v-max though so I wrote lee asking what the issue was and they tracked my purchase and address down and in their response was a statement that they had already shipped me a seating stem that would seat the bullets. My issue wasn't a ring on the bullet, the stem simply would not push the vmax low enough and I even tried ghetto rigging to no avail.

Mine don't leave a ring on the bullet, they mash on the tip.

 

[jim_k]

Did you do any work to the seating stem in the Lee die? The ones I have don't fit VLD type bullets at all.

The Lee stem worked fine on the Hornady ELD's, and I have not tried Bergers or JLKs. If you have a problem, phone Lee and see what they can work out.

 

[Texas10]

I have measured concentricity and noted the number on the cartridge case, and watched as bullets .007 or more OOR will land right in the group. And I'm like WTF......?

Lee collet sizer does a fabulous job for my 223 Rem. Just got back from the range shooting 69 gr Scenar L's over Varget, Federal Cases, CCI400. (Queue up the music for Risky Business). Oh yea......OOOOOH Yeaaaaa.

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that with minimal neck tension that bullets that are loaded into the lands will straighten, particularly if the bullet's shank engagement in the neck is on the short side, and the chamber neck to loaded round neck clearance is not excessive. I see a lot of posts about this not being important, and I would say that readers need to think about the individual situation that produced that result. I have had that happen under very specific conditions, but I would not take that to be a universal thing for all barrels, and loads.

 

[MislMan]

If you’re running a factory chamber (not a custom made action) do not turn the necks. This would cause the interior case neck to be larger and provide less tension on the bullet.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you’re running a factory chamber (not a custom made action) do not turn the necks. This would cause the interior case neck to be larger and provide less tension on the bullet.

I think you mean if youre using a factory non bushing die. You can turn off all the brass you want and itll still fit in a factory chamber

 

[MislMan]

Thanks Dusty, that is what I had in mind but words wouldn’t come to me. Sort of just wanted to point out that case trimming tools may not be next on his list.

 

[fatelvis]

I own a concentricity tool, it's somewhere in my loading bench, but I haven't used it in yrs.
John Whidden has noted that bullets with .009 runout have shot national records. (High power shooting if you don't know who John is)
A BR shooter in Oak Ridge who has held many national records at one time or another told me that he could not see .008 on the targets.
Personally I shoot F-TR, and my experience is the same. If your loading technique is reasonably consistent don't worry about it.

If you need to convince yourself, take 10 of your worst and 10 of your best and shoot groups. Then forget where you put that thing.

This post makes me feel so much better about my loading techniques. I'll be selling my concentricity tool soon!

 

[chkunz]

Many years ago I did a study and wrote a report on how to reduce runout and the report was published in Precision Shooting magazine. Then I shot the 600 yard stage of the national match course with the M14 for two years with straight ammo on one string and crooked ammo on the other string. I alternated crooked and straight on the first and second strings from match to match. That gave me over 20 matches to analyze. The scores were mostly Master class scores (I could not get any high masters to participate). There was no statistically significant difference in the scores with straight ammo vs crooked ammo. I sent a report on these results to Precision Shooting magazine but they did not publish it, I assumed the fact that some of the advertisers were selling runout gages may have influenced that decision. If I have a choice between straight ammo and crooked ammo I will take the straight ammo but I do not measure runout anymore. I have not seen any one else that has shown statistically significant data that says it maters.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Many years ago I did a study and wrote a report on how to reduce runout and the report was published in Precision Shooting magazine. Then I shot the 600 yard stage of the national match course with the M14 for two years with straight ammo on one string and crooked ammo on the other string. I alternated crooked and straight on the first and second strings from match to match. That gave me over 20 matches to analyze. The scores were mostly Master class scores (I could not get any high masters to participate). There was no statistically significant difference in the scores with straight ammo vs crooked ammo. I sent a report on these results to Precision Shooting magazine but they did not publish it, I assumed the fact that some of the advertisers were selling runout gages may have influenced that decision. If I have a choice between straight ammo and crooked ammo I will take the straight ammo but I do not measure runout anymore. I have not seen any one else that has shown statistically significant data that says it maters.

Many more factors go into highpower shooting than runout on your ammo as you found. In bench shooting it does factor in and is very important to load ammo as straight as possible