Complicated Mess- Extreme Run out

[TroyMN]

I sent my die back to Lee because I thought it was the problem, Email below:

"I have been reloading for years and have good luck getting much of my ammo in the .002-.003 runout. If I get a round with .007 I consider that very high.
With the Lee 6.5-300WSM die the runout is much higher. The new cases neck has around RO.002. After sizing the case neck has in the .003-006+ range. When seating the long Berger 140VLD that makes the bullet have .025+ run out. My best rounds had only .010 but 2 out of 15. This is so much runout it is very visible even without the gauge. I have been told the sizing process effects the run out. Could the die or expanding mandrel be the issue? It is a new die less than 50 rounds through it. Was cleaned well before initial use. If it matters the neck is sized down to .277-.284 OD with just the die before the neck is expanded back, seems like a lot but I do not know what is the correct size. I tried floating the die in the press with an o-ring but I did not see noticable improvement, only tried 4 rounds."
They said to mail it in..I included the following

Attn customer service,
Here is the die I am having trouble with. Also included are 3 fired cases as you requested to help with the trouble shoot. Two are new cases that are annealed and have only been sized with the Lee die and fired once. One case is a used case fired unknown number of times in a 270 WSM, then sized in the Lee die and fired.
Here is more information, New Win cases .004+- Run Out
Case #1 Sized and expanded .006 RO Neck OD .294-.291
Case #2 Sized only (no expander ball) .005 RO Neck OD.273-.285
Case #3 Sized and expanded, then sized again (no expander ball) .004 RO and more even Neck OD .281-.282
Fired cases have .0015 RO and Neck OD of .296 +-.001
I also measured the neck thickness. This is new to me and VERY difficult. My micrometer measures to .0005 and it is so touchy to get a precise reading The best I can tell is my neck thickness is .017 but varies to thin spots of .0165 and thick spots of .0185. Is that considered enough to cause the issue..."Bullet run out is caused by variations in the thickness of the case neck wall"

Response:
I sized one of your cases in the die with the expander rod removed and the sized outside diameter of the case neck is .285" which is correct for the die. On that same case I am finding, and yes it is hard to measure, a variation of case wall thickness of about .003". This is enough variation, strong side to weak, to move the bullet off center with the central axis of the case.
The answer is a collet next sizing die. The problem is that this is a custom die and at present Lee is not making custom dies. We hope to be back in that business again before the end of the year but the current demands of manufacturing sufficient quantities of standard inventory are standing in the way.
I will be returning your die to you because it doe meet spec and there is nothing I can change that will make it better for you.


That was the first part. Now I need to decide what to do.
#1- I was looking at getting a K&M neck turning tool, but I do not really want to turn the necks if I do not need to, I will be happy with .001-.005 RO.
#2- Lee collet die- find one, modify one a 260 rem or other, or just wait until the Custom Department starts making product again.
#3- Plan B
A fired case has .297 OD neck, when just seating a bullet in that fired case the Neck OD is increased about .0004. It sticks but very mild seating force needed in the press. That same fired case has about .001 neck RO, seated bullet is .004-.005. Could I just reseat a bullet in the fired cases, maybe add a crimp to help hold the bullet tighter?
Another question does it sound like this is a tight neck chamber? I have not had to turn brass to chamber or fire the rounds. The case neck expansion sounds very small, that is with anneal brass also. Could the very close neck tolerance also cause increase pressure signs before I am reaching velocities and charge weights that I expected to achieve? I am shooting 56.5 grains (58.5 is HOT) RL22 previous owner was shooting 60.5 RL22
THANK YOU to everyone that sat through and read this rambling instead of "turning the channel"
Thanks again
Troy

 

[snert]

Troy,

The Lee tech is correct. I only have one general and one specific comment. Generally, if the brass is bad, no matter what you do it ends up being bad.

(remember, when you FIRE it, it is turned to jelly in a nice chamber (we hope) for a moment, and comes out real nice and concentric. THEN we smash that brass in a cold die, and ALL of the inconsistencies in the brass show up in the neck. The die (if well made and yours apparently is) was made much like a rifle chamber. The variable is brass. It is mealable, has inconsistencies etc. If the brass is thin on one side (as yours is) it will end up being anything but straight.

Specific comment: Turning the neck will clean up the neck, but the variable still exists in the bosy of the brass, and you fire it, it turns to jelly for a millisecond, and guess what? Yep, all those inconsistencies show up in the neck.

Advice? Get better brass.

 

[BoydAllen]

This should improve your results. Check the bullet seating stem to see if the bullet is being pushed on its tip rather than having clearance there and being pushed on the ogive. VLDs can suffer from this problm. Second, are you lubing the inside of your case necks? Doing this will reduce the pull of your expander and should moderate runout. Take your time running the neck over the expander. As a alternative, leaving the expander out of the die and expanding with a expander die and mandrel, carefully and with lube will generally give less runout. Also when you size, short stroke the press and turn the case 90 degrees, three times, four insertions in the die. If you do this with the expander in the die, stop short of the expander except for the last down stroke to finish. Similarly, when you are seating the bullet, stop when the bullet is half seated and turn the round 180 degrees before finishing. Let us know if any of this helps. The bit with the expander die should not be done with a Forster Coax press. The float works against you, in this one instance.

 

[jo191145]

I'm with snert. If you start with brass using .003" variations in neck wall thickness accuracy will suffer. Even if you turn the necks even and get it to load concentric it doesn't matter. Upon ignition that weak/strong sided case body will turn into a banana slamming the projectile sideways into the leade.

Doesn't matter much what the gauge reads on a loaded round. It matters what happens when that round is fired.

 

[BoydAllen]

I agree but the amount of runout that he reported with the VDLs indicates a seater stem incompatibility that needs to be addressed, and the other stuff will make things a little better. Obviously he needs to address the neck and overall thickness runout as well. A better brand of brass is the ultimate answer there, turned necks or not. I have shot some pretty decent (for factory rifles) groups with unturned American brass. Sometimes we assume something that is less than optimal is the controlling factor in a rifle's performance when it is something else. We tend to react to what we can most easily "see" with the tools at hand.

 

[wwbrown]

When I did my 6.5 WSM, maybe 8 years back, I used 270 WSM Reding type S dies and just used a smaller bushing than normal for the 6.5 bullet. There is not a big difference between .264 and .277 so I thought it would work out fine and it did. I still have the die on the shelf and would sell it to you and if it does not work to your satisfaction I would refund all money.

Think about the die and let me know what you want to do before you come up for our Thursday night league and I will bring the die with me. I won't shoot that caliber again as I found it shot very well until about 550 rounds then the accuracy went very rapidly.

Think about it,

 

[TroyMN]

This should improve your results. Check the bullet seating stem to see if the bullet is being pushed on its tip rather than having clearance there and being pushed on the ogive. VLDs can suffer from this problm. Second, are you lubing the inside of your case necks? Doing this will reduce the pull of your expander and should moderate runout. Take your time running the neck over the expander. As a alternative, leaving the expander out of the die and expanding with a expander die and mandrel, carefully and with lube will generally give less runout. Also when you size, short stroke the press and turn the case 90 degrees, three times, four insertions in the die. If you do this with the expander in the die, stop short of the expander except for the last down stroke to finish. Similarly, when you are seating the bullet, stop when the bullet is half seated and turn the round 180 degrees before finishing. Let us know if any of this helps. The bit with the expander die should not be done with a Forster Coax press. The float works against you, in this one instance.

* I rechecked the seating stem. I was not bottoming out before but the contact point was at .123" diameter. I machined out the stem to a wider diameter deeper into the stem. Now the contact diameter is from .189" to .179", larger contact area.
* When sizing I lube the outside of the cases and inside necks with the spray lube, RCBS or Hornady One shot.
* I will try the extra sizing steps you mentioned, take is slower over mandrel, size the neck down 4x's while rotating 90 degrees.
* Seating the bullet while rotating, I used to do this for years, when testing on my 22-250 and .308 over the past year it did not show any improvement so I moved away from it. I will go back and do it consistently for this rifle until I get it fixed.( FYI I have been trying that also)
* I do not have a expander die, probably would get one with the neck turning equipment it I needed to go that direction.
My R*P, Federal, and Winchester do vary a little on average neck thickness. If I do not turn necks this would create a inconsistent neck tension with the Redding type S die, correct?
I still have a hard time believing ALL my brass is that bad. I can measure .002 on a small portion of the Winchester brass. But I have some WW brass in the .001-.0015 range. I have R*P brass, and also two small lots of Federal. If I measure at one location all the way around the brass it measures .001-.002 if you toss out the neck burrs or slightly oblong/flatten necks that cause the case to ride up on the mandrel. I tried setting up a tool to measure the pin-point thickness, but that was the way I was getting inconsistent results. I should be getting the die back tomorrow. I will resize all the brass and then start sorting which has the most consistent neck thickness. I wanted to anneal all the brass before sizing, but not having a machine or templaque does that just add more inconsistencies?

The gun is not shooting awful despite having some rounds with so much run out that I have extra friction closing the bolt. I am only doing 3 shot group vs 5 but I have 4 groups .172"-.4's and 3 groups .7-.9" I think the larger groups could be from my holding technique. I was tring to just let it lay on the bags like my 22-250 with break. I think the groups are better if I have a harder hold like with the .308 and bipod.

Any thoughts on the neck chamber size causing increased pressure?

Wade are you shooting Sunday at Red Wind, I hope to make it there for Sundays matches. Your die might be the solution, because that is what the previous owner used and was shooting one hole 5 shot groups.

 

[effendude]

Troy,
All of the above suggestions are good. I personally have very little faith in any of the reloading products produced by companies starting with an "L". I may be biased, but look at the time and effort you have into this project. With the mindset that the reloading press and dies have a huge effect on accuracy, why cut a corner there?

As a competitive shooter, I often hear talk about how brand or product X is nearly as good as brand Y but cheaper so a shooter will use it. I am not saying frugality is bad, but at the end of a match which is often decided by an X or a point or two, how much would you pay to make that 9 into a 10 or the 10 into an X? I ask this question of many shooters and it puts the price game into perspective.

BTW, don't ask how much I would have paid at the MN LR State Championship to trade the two 9's into 10's to make my 198-9X into a 200-9X smashing the 1000 yard F-TR National record of 200-5X. Ah, the what ifs....

Scott

 

[fdshuster]

TroyMN: Just one example of how the quality of brass can vary. Recently loaded 50 new Winchester 308 brass cases. Checked them for runout with my Sinclair concintricity gauge. A total of 26 out of 50 had loaded round runouts of .004" to .007".

Then loaded 40 more using new Lapua 308 brass cases. Checked them for runout and found a total of 3 out of the 40 that had runout of .004" maximum. The majority of the other 37 were .002" or less.

All loading was done on the same press (RCBS Rockchucker), same dies (Redding & Forster seater), same bullets (175 gr. SMK).

I'm not concerned about it although I do mark the bullet tips with a black magic marker before the first firing, and in the vast majority of instances they will straighten on the first firing.

The brass thickness on the Lapua averages .014" to .015" measured at the neck with my tubing micrometer, whereas the Winchester measures .011" to .0135", so I believe that is at least part of the problem. Heavier brass is better able to resist pressures (like when seating bullets?), than the thinner?

 

[watson556]

I read the post(s) quickly and some math jumped out at me. I may be all wet on this and you might have a lot more experience that I am assuming, but you’ll get what you paid for my opinion

It seems based on the dims you mentioned that:

1. your actual chamber neck dia. is ~.298" based on the size of the fired case. I’m assuming you don’t have to close the bolt REALLY hard or it could be much smaller

2. your case necks with bullet seated measure @ ~.2974" OD

3. that leaves only .0006 clearance and that is based off of an assumed small sample size - likely your population outliers will eat up .0006 and you will have .00xx(-) in some cases

4. neck dia of loaded round (.2974") - bullet diam (.264) = brass thickness (.0334") /2 = neck wall thickness of .0167". That's awefully thick isn't it? Are you necking down 300 WSM cases? I would think it would be better to neck down 270 WSM.

5. lets add .264 bullet dia. to a nominal neck wall thickness of .012 (the “normal” limit of neck wall thickness in my mind) = .264 + .012 + .012 = .288. If a sized case comes out of the die at .285 then it would give you ~.003 tension if your neck walls were .012" thick. A little much but it is “normal”. I would say the die is made for a neck wall thickness that you aren’t even close to.

What I am thinking - based on a lot of assumption and a little info:
1. cerro-safe your chamber properly. Know for sure what the chamber dims are.

2. either use different neck thickness brass (by neck turning or "other"...), get a different die, or re-barrel based on results of #1

good luck
-w
ETA forgot to enter dim in one place
ETA2: ...(by neck turning or "other"...)

 

[wwbrown]

Troy,

Hearing it is a used barrel changes everything, like I said my 6.5 WSM shot great until somewhere between 500 and 600 rounds. The fact that you are not able to get it to shoot may be an issue of a shot out barrel, the 6.5WSM is brutal on barrels and the experience I had seems to be the norm. To check the barrel out you may want to have someone look at it with a borescope.

Whatever you decide to do the offer for my doe is still good.

 

[TroyMN]

By drilling out the seating stem I got rid of the +.015 run out. It makes contact significantly closer to the o-give.
Thanks to wade I have a new to me full length 270wsm s type redding die. The new Fl S die has neck brass <.002 run out, some just wiggle the needle. Loaded rounds ( small sample so far) are .002 with rotation of the case when seating. Run out is around .004 if I just seat the bullet in one stroke.
This is good enough for now, maybe will need a better seating die. Also I noticed was the die now give the neck parrel sides, the lee die left the mouth of the neck about .002 smaller than 3/4 of the way to the shoulder..... Not sure how I or Lee missed that. Would explain the seating getting significantly easier as the bullet was seated.
I got a .296 bushing only gives me .001 +/- neck tension. It is what I could find at the time, until I need to turn necks it should work to see if the barrel will shoot.
I will post an update with group sizes.
Thanks for the help.

 

[snert]

Some guys drill out a stem and fill with hot glue, then seat a bullet, let cool. Now you have a custom seater to your bullet

 

[BoydAllen]

Factory chambers and the neck portions of one piece dies may taper because unturned brass tapers from the base of cases, where it is thickest, to the case mouth, where it is thinnest. The taper in thickness is continuous, which means that neck brass nearest the shoulder is thicker than that which is near the case mouth. The thought behind tapering dies and chambers is to compensate for this so that when a bullet is seated in a neck that the clearance between the loaded neck and the chamber is more consistent, instead of being less near the shoulder, and more at the case mouth. Also, if the neck of the die is made parallel the IDs of unturned necks would be smaller at the neck causing more effort to be required to pull the expander through this area, beyond what is already the case due to the slightly thicker brass, and the reinforcement created by the shoulder. If you look at SAAMI chamber drawings you will see that necks are dimensioned as slightly larger at the shoulder than they are at the case mouth. On the other hand, custom chambers that are designed to be used with turned necks, and sizing bushings that originated for the same purpose, do not have this taper, although Wilson bushings are reputed to produce about a half thousandth of additional sizing if they are turned over.

 

[wwbrown]

Glad to see the die you bought from me reduced your runout, now hopefully the accuracy will improve.

Good luck,
wade

 

[amlevin]

Some guys drill out a stem and fill with hot glue, then seat a bullet, let cool. Now you have a custom seater to your bullet

Or Devcon

Best to use a case and bullet that has as close to zero run-out as possible for this operation. Wax up the bullet with some Kiwi Neutral Shoe Polish before seating in the devcon. Also make sure the inside of the die has some lube on it where you don't want the devcon to stick.

Stuff is more durable than hot glue.