Rifle doctor

[mshelton]

Before I throw another one in the river (yes, literally) does anyone know of a smith out there that will take a rifle in, look at and tell you what the heckle is wrong with it?

Third one in row that has done this craps to me, freshly barreled action from reputable multiple smiths, break the barrel in with 10-20 shots and the standard 1 shot then clean for 5 shots then 3 shot strings with cleaning afterwards. Work up a load, have the rifle almost there, high 2s, then come back and it's all gone to pot, rifle won't group under an inch with loads that were 3s and 4s the previous day. I know that a rifle can change day to day but a load that shot in the high 1s twice and is now 1.5" is telling me something is wrong. On all 3 rifles I've tried different scopes (NF, March and Leopold) different bases, rebed them, different powders, changed my cleaning procedure, changed cleaning rods, anything I can think of but the last 3 have just all gone to crap in under 200 rounds.

So before I send another one to a watery grave I'd like to know if there is someone out there I could send the rifle too maybe with some of the loads that once shot well and have them tell me what the actual heck I'm doing wrong.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sounds like you need some wind flags.

 

[SmokinJoe]

What kind of rifle, caliber, etc?

 

[Scott Harris]

What kind of rifle, caliber, etc?

and what's the application? benchrest? If you are looking for an evaluation of your gear and ammo, I'm sure the likes of Gordy Gritters or Speedy Gonzales can help.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Are you using moly bullets? And what is the cleaning procedure/ solvent you are using?

I find it hard to believe that 3 rifles in a row from various reputable smiths went bad that quickly when they all started out shooting so well. No offense, but it has to be something you are doing, or perhaps "not" doing because you are the only common denominator...

150-200 rounds is where accuracy really starts falling off if you are not getting the carbon and copper out. Regular Joe cleaning solvent on Nylon brush is not gonna get it done.

 

[hogan]

Sounds like you need some wind flags.

Dusty,

If you read our friends post, you would see he was getting 3's and 4's; presumably meaning groups of .3" and .4" which indicates, at least to me, that he has a clue about wind, flags or not.

Really hard to see comrade Ledd S's conclusion about moly. New barrels, good cleaning regimen. Probably not enough rounds fired to make moly fouling even a possibility.


Perplexing problem. Maybe there are gunsafe gremlins knocking Shelton's gear around?
If one knew some specifics and details, maybe a diagnosis could be found other than SWAGging it?
But heaven forbid that...

 

[mshelton]

All heavy barreled hunting rifles, all shot over flags, and if I shoot a 1.5" group at 100yds because I missed a condition then I'm probably using the wrong cartridge/projectile.

Scopes have been Leupold 36x tuckerized, 2.5-25 March, 10-60 March, 8-32 NF. Rests have been, Hart, Cowan and Farley.

Rifle 1
Kelbly atlas, McMillan marksman with sniper fill, 6.5x55imp, 25" Spencer heavy varmint taper. Shot multiple groups in the 1s fire forming and then first few groups with formed brass. Went to almost a 2" gun, tried Lapua and Norma brass, different neck thicknesses, powders, primers Berger, Sierra, Hornady etc with nothing under an inch.

2nd rifle
6.5 saum
tried 700, rem varmint taper 24" Kreiger, first 15 shots after break in were 5 groups of 3 shots in the high 1s to low 1s, cleaned then nothing under 3/4", tried Norma and nosler brass, different powder primers neck thicknesses etc, even tried an old time precision neck turner over my pumpkin. Rebarreled, almost identical results.

Current rifle
trued 700 that was a 6br that shot well till the barrel was gone, be barrel 6x47L 21" med Palma taper, HS stock, after break in, had 105 amax in the low 2s regularly, 3 groups in the 1s with 105 Bergers. None of those loads will now shoot under an inch, barrel does have a break, if removed the groups go to 2"+ with same original loads that shot well, rifle has been rebed and different neck tension along with thicknesses tried, different powders tried also.

I'm starting to think it a disease and I'm the carrier.

 

[mshelton]

Yeah, no moly.

No more than 25 rounds before cleaning, using a routine that Clay Spencer taught me, Ballistol, copper brush, Sweets, pro shot rods, Lucas bore guides. Tried wipe out after reading the Boyer book, less rod time in the barrel, Sweets patches come out clear on last application also.

And I agree it's probably something I am doing but I can't figure it out.

Switched all my rods out to bore tech also just to see if that made a difference. Tried annealing and not annealing, cases are all trimmed to length after 3rd firing also (not including fire form firing)

 

[mshelton]

Lastly, the loads aren't hot, I try and buy quality scopes that adjust to where they should, 2 less clicks isn't worth burning a barrel up for.

Also, pardon the typing errors, autocortect on a phone sometimes stinks.

 

[jonbearman]

It is time to have all 3 borescoped to see if the chamber looks right and to make sure that you are not missing some copper build up or something like that. Out of curiosity did you clean the new barrel before you started shooting? Did you let each rifle cool between shooting for group? Are all 3 barrels free floated all the way to the receiver?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Sounds like you need some wind flags.

Dusty,

If you read our friends post, you would see he was getting 3's and 4's; presumably meaning groups of .3" and .4" which indicates, at least to me, that he has a clue about wind, flags or not.

Really hard to see comrade Ledd S's conclusion about moly. New barrels, good cleaning regimen. Probably not enough rounds fired to make moly fouling even a possibility.


Perplexing problem. Maybe there are gunsafe gremlins knocking Shelton's gear around?
If one knew some specifics and details, maybe a diagnosis could be found other than SWAGging it?
But heaven forbid that...

I was just trying to cover some bases.

All that typing and "gunsafe gremlins" is your input??? ???

Would you mind letting shooters with actual experience attempt to assist Mr. Mshelton with his issue? It would be much appreciated hogan...

I

 

[hogpatrol]

WAG, Moisture somehow getting in the powder/case? Are you ultrasonically cleaning your brass? That is perplexing for sure.

 

[Joe Salt]

Don't be afraid to try different seating depths after a break in period things do change a little.

Joe Salt

 

[Hopkins]

One gun afflicted by gremlins or cursed by voodoo is common enough. Three all going the same way, on the way to a watery grave would make me think I was guilty of erratic performance. When that happens to me I set up the video and tape myself and then look carefully for mistakes in form and execution.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yeah, no moly.

No more than 25 rounds before cleaning, using a routine that Clay Spencer taught me, Ballistol, copper brush, Sweets, pro shot rods, Lucas bore guides. Tried wipe out after reading the Boyer book, less rod time in the barrel, Sweets patches come out clear on last application also.

And I agree it's probably something I am doing but I can't figure it out.

Switched all my rods out to bore tech also just to see if that made a difference. Tried annealing and not annealing, cases are all trimmed to length after 3rd firing also (not including fire form firing)

Sounds like you've got the cleaning covered. Only recommendation is perhaps switch from Sweets to Pro Shot Copper solvent. Much better product.

I agree with the bore scoping suggestion from jonbearman. Don't necessarily need a reputable gunsmith to do that. Many gunsmiths will do that for free if you sit around and have a conversation with them

 

[Ledd Slinger]

However, if you do decide to throw it in the river, let me know a day or two beforehand so I can make sure I have my swimming gear ready ;D

 

[mshelton]

I've tried ultrasonic cleaning, and different seating depths.

This current rifle after break in shot the Berger 105s n the 1s at.030 off, from jam to .060 in .010 increments and with a 1 grain swing in powder in.2 increments nothing today has been under 5/8 of an inch, cases that shot previous nasty groups and flyers have been eliminated also.

As for gremlins in the gun room, which is climate controlled, well it's the best I've been able to come up with myself.

 

[mshelton]

Rifles have all been floated to the receiver, tried bedding the first inch or two of barrel on a couple of them also.

Thought it may have been me and just bad shooting also, had a fellow shooting fried print some groups with them that were the same results.

Groups are all 3 shots and barrels are completely cooled between them, lots of forum and book reading time. Would recommend the Harvey Donaldson book if someone wants a good read.

 

[SmokinJoe]

You are shooting all fairly large case capacities, so the dreaded carbon ring thing could be part of this equation. Do you ever give it a good short stroked patch of JB bore cleaner or IOSSO? If not, you might try that.

 

[joshb]

Could it be possible that you got a "bad" bottle of one of your cleaning solutions.? By what i'm reading, you have various barrels, stocks, etc. lots of experience. The guns go to crap "after cleaning". Just thinkin out loud.