OP,,,,,just guessin,,,if you have multiple bbl that shoot great at first (which tells that the gunsmithing is done right ) and then stops shooting,,,,it sounds like you are not cleaning the bbls proplerly and the accuracy is going away,,,I would clean them with Flitz or Semi Chrome cleaner vigoursly and amonia (Sweets or its equal ) cleaner to get rid of the copper and the carbon,,,,,and then talk to somone at the range that knows what he is doing and use his or some other cleaning regiment than the one you have been using,,,,,Roger
Roger is on to something. It may be streaking towards the muzzle end which will really goof up accuracy. Keep in mind when you use a bronze brush with sweets you can also get a false positive because it(sweets) is dissolving the brush. Once I scrub with a good tight bore brush I patch out and go to Iosso or JB Bore paste and use a nylon brush with a patch wrapped around it and start the process of removing hard carbon along with excessive copper. One good solvent I like for copper is Montana extreme's 50 bmg solvent. They may have renamed it but the stuff works real well. The ammonia will wake the dead.LOL After you use anything with ammonia I use Brakleen brand of brake solvent for car or truck brake's and hold the gun muzzle down and put the straw right in the chamber and blow some through it outside. Then I do a light cleaning with butch's , patch out, run one patch with bore oil on it, done.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm in this real late and have to run but ...
Think you talked about three different rifles, by three different people and *** key point***a couple hundred rounds were fine and trouble started.
All these guys are on to something with that cleaning issue. Something might be building up.
What powder/s are being used? I ask that because some powders like Varget, Rel. 15 and 17, IMR 4166 and others are hideous for carbon issues building up. Being larger calibers I doubt you are using any of them but I have to ask.
Do you have and use a borescope? If not, beg, borrow or steal one to look both in front of the chamber and near the muzzle. I believe these thoughts are relevant and these other guys are way more experienced than me to expound.
Think you talked about three different rifles, by three different people and *** key point***a couple hundred rounds were fine and trouble started.
All these guys are on to something with that cleaning issue. Something might be building up.
What powder/s are being used? I ask that because some powders like Varget, Rel. 15 and 17, IMR 4166 and others are hideous for carbon issues building up. Being larger calibers I doubt you are using any of them but I have to ask.
Do you have and use a borescope? If not, beg, borrow or steal one to look both in front of the chamber and near the muzzle. I believe these thoughts are relevant and these other guys are way more experienced than me to expound.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
TC260 said:
No offense intended. Your idea is sound advice. I was just showing you that he stated conducting everything you suggested in an earlier post. He shot a successful ladder test with a 1gr node window, which is not narrow by any means, and also tested varying seating depths in the ladder with success. So my conclusion is that he is no novice to handloading and the problem lies elswhere. Just trying to keep everyone "skimming" through the reply's on the same page so the collective thought process of troubleshooting is headed down avenues not covered yet.
I've read every post.
You said after a couple hundred rounds it just wouldn't shoot one day. I assume those couple hundred rounds where not shot on one occasion. If I am correct that it shot well on more than on occasion after your break in and load developement sessions, i would definately look into the bore to see if cleaning is the problem. Also, have you tried some virgin brass? Possible your brass prep is not right for whatever reason. I know someone said you had custom dies and you sound like your bumping right and annealing, but, you never know. Virgin brass, like when you first started shooting these rifles, would rule out brass as the problem.
I know on the 6.5 saum the doughnut is an ongoing problem that needs addressed. I wouldn't think the 6.5-55 AI would have too much of that problem, nor the 6br but, one again, you never know.
Based on everything else I have read and you have stated, given the brass is good to go, barrel condition would be where I would look next. Whether it be cleaning or a crazy fluke of 3 bad barrels you won't know till you look.
You said after a couple hundred rounds it just wouldn't shoot one day. I assume those couple hundred rounds where not shot on one occasion. If I am correct that it shot well on more than on occasion after your break in and load developement sessions, i would definately look into the bore to see if cleaning is the problem. Also, have you tried some virgin brass? Possible your brass prep is not right for whatever reason. I know someone said you had custom dies and you sound like your bumping right and annealing, but, you never know. Virgin brass, like when you first started shooting these rifles, would rule out brass as the problem.
I know on the 6.5 saum the doughnut is an ongoing problem that needs addressed. I wouldn't think the 6.5-55 AI would have too much of that problem, nor the 6br but, one again, you never know.
Based on everything else I have read and you have stated, given the brass is good to go, barrel condition would be where I would look next. Whether it be cleaning or a crazy fluke of 3 bad barrels you won't know till you look.
mshelton
Thanks for all the input, was hoping to find someone to take the rifle to and have them look at it, it seems to be a rare trait nowadays, Clay Spencer was good at it, he had about 8-10 primary things he would look at then move on to secondary and then little things that no one would ever consider. Unfortunately I had a falling out with him, both of our personalities are pretty strong and when a disagreement happend it became a nasty clash. He really is a hell of a smith and I probably took for granted what he was capable of especially after running into smiths that can't even devlope a load for their personal rifles.
I've checked the paralax with the bobble head routine and it's accecptable, extreme movement from one side to another might be 1/8" at most, nothing to account for a change from a .2" to 1.5". Changed rests and rear bags, even tried loading a bipod, same buckshot patterns looking back at me.
The accuracy started falling off before 200 rounds on all the rifles, it was right at the end of load development on all of them. Right when you think you have it tuned down to a small window, where 3-4 loads are giving you high 1s and it could just use that final tweaking to get you there. Those are the loads I'm looking for, ones where a slight variation stays in at most the 2s.
I start with 25 pieces of brass, fire form them, neck size then start load development. After 3 firing I start FL sizing and trim to length. So these 3 have gone to pot around 100 rounds. I really don't put much creedence in the first virgin brass firings, brass hasn't fully formed yet so pressure curves will be slightly off and the leade hasn't been smothed out yet so a lot of times those loads are just with powder that is left over (1/2 lb or so of a lot) and I just get an idea of velocity ranges I can expect.
After the first 75-100 rounds the barrels get JB'd with the non embedding paste then a good sweets soaking just to try and ensure that all the break in copper is gone. With this one I've gone at it the past couple of days, it's gotten the regular routine, sat overnight with wipe out foam in the barrel twice, hit with 40x, TM and bore shine. No patches have come out blue but I do see some faint lines of black on some of the dry patches, may be nothing, may be some tough carbon, may be my bore guide giving up the ghost under the nonstop solvent barrage.
The powders that I've used have been H4831SC, H4350 and RE17 in this barrel, used the same ones in the 6.5 Sweede Imp and the 6.5SAUM saw H1000 and Retumbo.
Hopefully I'll be able to borescope it Sunday, I'd like to see something that explains what is going on, wether it be fouling or some kind of pitting and ate up rifling, the barrel would be shot but at least I would know.
I've checked the paralax with the bobble head routine and it's accecptable, extreme movement from one side to another might be 1/8" at most, nothing to account for a change from a .2" to 1.5". Changed rests and rear bags, even tried loading a bipod, same buckshot patterns looking back at me.
The accuracy started falling off before 200 rounds on all the rifles, it was right at the end of load development on all of them. Right when you think you have it tuned down to a small window, where 3-4 loads are giving you high 1s and it could just use that final tweaking to get you there. Those are the loads I'm looking for, ones where a slight variation stays in at most the 2s.
I start with 25 pieces of brass, fire form them, neck size then start load development. After 3 firing I start FL sizing and trim to length. So these 3 have gone to pot around 100 rounds. I really don't put much creedence in the first virgin brass firings, brass hasn't fully formed yet so pressure curves will be slightly off and the leade hasn't been smothed out yet so a lot of times those loads are just with powder that is left over (1/2 lb or so of a lot) and I just get an idea of velocity ranges I can expect.
After the first 75-100 rounds the barrels get JB'd with the non embedding paste then a good sweets soaking just to try and ensure that all the break in copper is gone. With this one I've gone at it the past couple of days, it's gotten the regular routine, sat overnight with wipe out foam in the barrel twice, hit with 40x, TM and bore shine. No patches have come out blue but I do see some faint lines of black on some of the dry patches, may be nothing, may be some tough carbon, may be my bore guide giving up the ghost under the nonstop solvent barrage.
The powders that I've used have been H4831SC, H4350 and RE17 in this barrel, used the same ones in the 6.5 Sweede Imp and the 6.5SAUM saw H1000 and Retumbo.
Hopefully I'll be able to borescope it Sunday, I'd like to see something that explains what is going on, wether it be fouling or some kind of pitting and ate up rifling, the barrel would be shot but at least I would know.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Hmmm...40X on a nylon brush with two sessions of 20 strokes is a carbon killing recipe for success. Wipe out is a good cleaner as well once the carbon is removed. One other thing I might suggest is that you use a 7mm nylon brush with the 40X. I always use one bore size bigger now that I only use nylon.
I feel for you Mr. Shelton. Ive been fortunate enough to never experience a problem such as yours with any of my firearms. Of course im not shooting for ones. Threes and twos have me grinning from ear to ear for what I do.
To have three rifles give you a glimpse of heaven and then slam the door shut must be infuriating at times. Hopefully the borescoping will draw some conclusions for you. Good luck!
I feel for you Mr. Shelton. Ive been fortunate enough to never experience a problem such as yours with any of my firearms. Of course im not shooting for ones. Threes and twos have me grinning from ear to ear for what I do.
To have three rifles give you a glimpse of heaven and then slam the door shut must be infuriating at times. Hopefully the borescoping will draw some conclusions for you. Good luck!
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Another question...
Do you regularly clean your chamber and bolt lug recess area as well?
Do you regularly clean your chamber and bolt lug recess area as well?
mshelton
Yeah, end of the routine I pull the bore guide and clean it, wipe the crown, then use a patch ot paper towell on a 40 cal wire brush and clean the chamber till the next towell or patch comes out clean, reinsert the bore guide and run a patch with a couple drops of lockease down the bore.
Lugs get wiped and fresh nickle anti-sieze applied, Spencer reccomended that over grease so i've always stuck with it.
Lugs get wiped and fresh nickle anti-sieze applied, Spencer reccomended that over grease so i've always stuck with it.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Scott Harris said:
Who?
mshelton
Link said:
No recoil reducer in the rifles.
Action screws have been checked and even replaced, figured it was worth a shot.
I've checked tthem all for free floating. On the previous 2 I originally just bed the action and back of the recoil lug. The other 2 started out having the first 2" of barrel bed also and was later ground out then both had the the bedding milled out and rebed just the action and back of the lug
mshelton
hogpatrol said:
Yep, hence looking for a rifle doctor, or witch doctor or a procto exorcist performer.
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
On that thought: are you married to some one who might be a little jealous of all the time and money you spend on shooting, and might be prone to sabotage? Mine once threatened to take a sledge hammer to my favorite 308.😳 Maybe some " evil competitor " snuck into your house and put acid in your barrels? Alien metal eating termites? I got nothin else. Good luck.
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