Rifle doctor

[hogan]

Have you tried more of your Fire-Forming loads?

Try shooting them once more and see if your groups tighten-up again.
See if anything still delivers the accuracy level you had and then begin isolating variables.

If you are shooting factory ammunition to fire form cases, that would be an indicator...

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Are you only using the loads you originally developed? Perhaps it's time to start load development once again from ground zero. Setting up head space, bullet jump, etc...

But I would definitely have the barrel scoped first because if there happens to be an excessive amount of copper or carbon build up, you may only make things worse. I used to have patches come out clear using Butchs and Sweets. Switched to Rem 40X and Pro Shot Copper Solvent and couldn't believe what came out of some of my barrels. But you may have a clean barrel and the issue is something else. Who knows. Cant really tell without a borescope. A dirty barrel will still look shiny and clean to the naked eye after being scrubbed.

The bore scope will also tell the tale of the chamber cut and condition of the lands.

Try to watch some videos on YouTube that show you exactly what a clean bore and properly cut chamber is supposed to look like. Also watch videos that show "alligator skin" (fire cracking), fouled bores, and poorly cut chambers. This way you will be educated on what to look for in a good bore as well as a bad bore and will be able to understand what your smith may find. Then ask if you can look through the bore scope as well so you can see what he's seeing. I use my smiths hawkeye all the time. We have such a long ongoing relationship at this point that if I tell him I am questioning the condition of my bore, he just hands me his hawkeye. Always nice to know what looks good and what doesn't. Then you can talk to each other about what may have caused the issue.

 

[LHSmith]

The one element required to shoot with consistent accuracy...and very, very few shooters can master it.....reading and holding off for mirage. The key is expecting the same result on different days ........very seldom are atmospheric conditions the same from one shooting session to the next. Now, if one consciously monitors the conditions and only shoots on days that replicate the original tuning session...then it's all on you.
Ask any BR shooter if they have to re-zero the scope from one day (agg) to the next....or even from the first match of the day (early am) to the second or third match ( late am).

 

[LHSmith]

Sounds like you need some wind flags.

If you read our friends post, you would see he was getting 3's and 4's; presumably meaning groups of .3" and .4" which indicates, at least to me, that he has a clue about wind, flags or not.

Other than using a spotting scope to read mirage, I'd like to know the secret to wind reading without flags? An awful lot of BR shooters will look pretty silly finding out there is an easier way.

 

[mshelton]

The one element required to shoot with consistent accuracy...and very, very few shooters can master it.....reading and holding off for mirage.

I can completely understand that. It's rare that I toot my own horn but I don't consider myself to be too terrible of a shot. I've got a couple sub 4" groups from 1k br matches and some 250 20ish x targets with a ppc from the local score matches but these past 3 have me feeling like Billy Bob Watermelon with his Savage and tasco.

I've gone back to the original start loads that shot well with bad results. I've gone back to the beginning of development with this current rifle, double checked my sizing and bump, which is apps a thou and a half. I've got access to a bore scope and will give it a look this weekend. There may be something to the copper solvent, the sweets always did the trick with the faster twist light bullet rifles, maybe my batch is weaker and the longer bearing surface is depositing coppetin areas that it's ineffective. I'll pick up a can of the stuff you mentioned this evening, can't hurt.

 

[hogan]

Shelton,

What cartridge are you forming? Wildcat or Improved could matter.
Using factory ammo or virgin brass handloads? Maybe your own previously once-fired brass?

Do you have other rifles that shoot well for you?

When you say "heavy barreled hunting rifles" do you mean .458win mag "heavy" or varmint contour "heavy"

 

[Ggmac]

What kind of rifle case ? Hard or soft, stored in AC or left in car ?
Just asking some basics that down here in south Fl . It matters .
Gary

 

[Tim Singleton]

What type sizing dies are you using?
fL dies with neck bushings?
FL
Neck only?

The reason I ask I use FL dies with neck bushings no expanding button.
after multiple sizing I sometimes have to go to one size smaller bushing to get a grip.
I will start to see flyers appear when necks get hardened I will drop down a bushing. Usually clears things up

 

[LHSmith]

The one element required to shoot with consistent accuracy...and very, very few shooters can master it.....reading and holding off for mirage.

I can completely understand that. It's rare that I toot my own horn but I don't consider myself to be too terrible of a shot. I've got a couple sub 4" groups from 1k br matches and some 250 20ish x targets with a ppc from the local score matches but these past 3 have me feeling like Billy Bob Watermelon with his Savage and tasco.

Am I to assume you shot those hunting rifles with the aid of a spotting scope........even a typical hunting scope at 14x won't reveal mirage well enough to read it. Remember, it's there moving the target where it ain't -whether you see it or not.
Edit- re-read the thread and missed you did use high X Br scopes. Hope you had them turned up.

 

[hogan]

All heavy barreled hunting rifles, all shot over flags, and if I shoot a 1.5" group at 100yds because I missed a condition then I'm probably using the wrong cartridge/projectile.

Scopes have been Leupold 36x tuckerized, 2.5-25 March, 10-60 March, 8-32 NF. Rests have been, Hart, Cowan and Farley.

Rifle 1
Kelbly atlas, McMillan marksman with sniper fill, 6.5x55imp, 25" Spencer heavy varmint taper. Shot multiple groups in the 1s fire forming and then first few groups with formed brass. Went to almost a 2" gun, tried Lapua and Norma brass, different neck thicknesses, powders, primers Berger, Sierra, Hornady etc with nothing under an inch.

2nd rifle
6.5 saum
tried 700, rem varmint taper 24" Kreiger, first 15 shots after break in were 5 groups of 3 shots in the high 1s to low 1s, cleaned then nothing under 3/4", tried Norma and nosler brass, different powder primers neck thicknesses etc, even tried an old time precision neck turner over my pumpkin. Rebarreled, almost identical results.

Current rifle
trued 700 that was a 6br that shot well till the barrel was gone, be barrel 6x47L 21" med Palma taper, HS stock, after break in, had 105 amax in the low 2s regularly, 3 groups in the 1s with 105 Bergers. None of those loads will now shoot under an inch, barrel does have a break, if removed the groups go to 2"+ with same original loads that shot well, rifle has been rebed and different neck tension along with thicknesses tried, different powders tried also.

I'm starting to think it a disease and I'm the carrier.

Read over your posts again. You might make a separate topic for each rifle, and provide more detail. You have very nice gear. 1" plus groups with 6.5x55AI is not too impressive. Is it a new ctg for you? Might try Sierra Accuracy load as a starting point, or for a benchmark.

There are such things as bad barrels. If you can and have shot other rifles with consistency and precision, and these 3 were built by same gunsmith, it is the gunsmith.

If the same gunsmith trued the 700 action(s), they may be a liability also.


For what it will cost to "diagnose" your problems, and likely confirm the guns are wrong, you need to take another rifle that has always shot well for you and establish that you are not the problem.

How much you willing to spend, how much more time willing to lose chasing your tail?

There is also possibility that the scopes are all bad. If you have a boresighter/collimator like bushnell 74-3333 you can test each scope and prove it tracks and is mounted congruent to bore centerline.

If you have shot the hell out of the 6.5x55AI trying to get a performing handload, the barrel might also be gone. 600rds about max for top accuracy, even if you never found it.

If you can consistently shoot tight groups with another rifle, it comes down to what variable do the 3 problem guns have in common; likely the gunsmith...

 

[bheadboy]

I am most likely way off but I have on occasion had a similar problem with ONE rifle, after load work up getting good groups, crash - lousy

it turned out to be the cleaning process similar to yours, I had a damaged crown, from the cleaning rod/brushes/jag, I don't know which, tossed them bot new, had recrowned and problem gone.

muzzle, give it a look last 1/2 inch of rifling and exit
Bob

 

[antitactical]

His barrels are from different manufacturers. Spencer, krieger,and bartlien. His dies are custom. Some made just from the reamer (up to 300.00 a set). I highly doubt that between leupold long range, nightforce and March that all of them would be bad. He truly has spared no expense. One big problem that keeps showing its head is the dreaded 2 in one hole and fling one. It will fling any random shot too. I dont know what is going on with these rifles. Hes got a couple big boomers (300 ackley and 338 lapua imp) that shoot well and a handful of small calibers (6brs,222,20br,6pcc) up to a .308 that shoot lights out. Different smiths and different components....... Any ideas???????

 

[ARshuter]

Just a thought. Instead of looking for a "Doctor" why not give the gun to an established shooter near you to see if he/she can come up with an answer.

 

[MrMajestic]

Just brainstorming with you as I have a couple of tubes that refuse to shoot, two in 6.5X47L. Makes me cringe everytime states how easy to tune and accurate they are! Perhaps cryogenic treatment to relieve some stress that developed from heat/pressure? Don't flame me, just trying to help.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Read over your posts again. You might make a separate topic for each rifle, and provide more detail. You have very nice gear. 1" plus groups with 6.5x55AI is not too impressive. Is it a new ctg for you? Might try Sierra Accuracy load as a starting point, or for a benchmark.

There are such things as bad barrels. If you can and have shot other rifles with consistency and precision, and these 3 were built by same gunsmith, it is the gunsmith.

If the same gunsmith trued the 700 action(s), they may be a liability also.


For what it will cost to "diagnose" your problems, and likely confirm the guns are wrong, you need to take another rifle that has always shot well for you and establish that you are not the problem.

How much you willing to spend, how much more time willing to lose chasing your tail?

There is also possibility that the scopes are all bad. If you have a boresighter/collimator like bushnell 74-3333 you can test each scope and prove it tracks and is mounted congruent to bore centerline.

If you have shot the hell out of the 6.5x55AI trying to get a performing handload, the barrel might also be gone. 600rds about max for top accuracy, even if you never found it.

If you can consistently shoot tight groups with another rifle, it comes down to what variable do the 3 problem guns have in common; likely the gunsmith...

He's answered most the stuff you're asking about if you just start READING and quit typing so much. You complain about not having enough information and you aren't even reading the whole thread!!! And to think that you just got done whining on those other threads... The rifles were smithed by different people!.

Pay attention!

 

[JohnKielly]

Are you taking the brush off at the muzzle or withdrawing back it through the barrel?

If it's the second case, check that your rod(s) rotate(s) on the way back up. One of my friends chewed up a barrel somewhat with a rod that didn't spin in both directions.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yeah metal brushes and stainless Pro Shot rods aren't friendly to a bore if they get off track. I use Dewey coated rods and carbon fiber with nylon brushes with Rem 40X for carbon. Once carbon is out, I use Pro Shot Copper solvent. I haven't put a copper or bronze brush in a barrel for many years now.

Pro shot stainless rod can damage a bore if not guided properly, but being that he is using Lucas bore guides, I don't think that's the problem. Doesn't get much better than Lucas bore guides.

The problem with Sweets is that it can and will go bad. The last two bottles I owned years ago went soft on me. Patches were coming out clear or just a very slight blue tinge, but when I could see plenty of copper at the muzzle, I knew it wasn't working properly. When Sweets is new and at full strength, you also have to be careful not to leave it sitting in your bore very long because it can become corrosive to the metal.

Mshelton, have you looked at the rifling below the crown with a flashlight? Standard lamp flashlights are best. LED lights tend to make the copper harder to see. The muzzle is usually a copper catching hot spot until the barrel is fully broke in. If there is a problem, you can usually see the copper on the rifling and grooves with the naked eye by holding the barrel at a slight angle under light. If you have copper built up at the muzzle, you probably have it everywhere else too. Of course you have to make sure you have removed all the carbon in order to see the full extent of copper build up.

 

[TC260]

Reading through the thread I'm wondering what the load development process is. Tiny groups one day, completely blow up the next, sounds to me like the loads aren't sitting in a good stable node.

I know not everybody is a fan of the OCW method but one thing about it I've seen play out so many times is trying to work with that tiny little group right below the scatter node can wreak havoc on accuracy. That "node" if we can even call it that, is so narrow that the rifle keeps popping in and out of it and won't stay in tune leading to the large variations in group size from one day to the next.

Since I don't know what method the OP is using, I personally like ladder tests the best for defining a node followed by seating depth. OCW or the method as laid out in Eric Cortina's long running thread also work very well for finding good stable nodes in my experience.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Reading through the thread I'm wondering what the load development process is. Tiny groups one day, completely blow up the next, sounds to me like the loads aren't sitting in a good stable node.

I know not everybody is a fan of the OCW method but one thing about it I've seen play out so many times is trying to work with that tiny little group right below the scatter node can wreak havoc on accuracy. That "node" if we can even call it that, is so narrow that the rifle keeps popping in and out of it and won't stay in tune leading to the large variations in group size from one day to the next.

Since I don't know what method the OP is using, I personally like ladder tests the best for defining a node followed by seating depth. OCW or the method as laid out in Eric Cortina's long running thread also work very well for finding good stable nodes in my experience.

He did conduct a ladder test. Don't think his handloading abilities are the issue as it seems he is well versed. Below is his quote regarding the ladder test...

I've tried ultrasonic cleaning, and different seating depths.

This current rifle after break in shot the Berger 105s n the 1s at.030 off, from jam to .060 in .010 increments and with a 1 grain swing in powder in.2 increments nothing today has been under 5/8 of an inch, cases that shot previous nasty groups and flyers have been eliminated also.

 

[TC260]

Don't think his handloading abilities are the issue as it seems he is well versed.

Everything under the sun has been proposed in this thread so far and nobody, including me, is helping with suggestions with the assumption that the OP doesn't know what he's doing. We're making suggestions to help turn over the right stone that reveals the problem.

If you don't think load development is the issue, fair enough. There's been some things mentioned that I doubt are the problem too but since the answer hasn't been found yet, who am I to criticize the ideas of others?