Revisiting the 257 Ackley Improved

[ISS]

You may have been marginally competent; or the components were not at the level we have available today.

Your' failure is not an absolute truism. 550 years ago most thought the Earth was flat.

I do NOT consider my project a waste of time. At least not mine. target accuracy with faster twists and heavier (for caliber) bullets in larger capacity is a never ending, evolving process.

In this instance, it is just a matter of identifying and matching powder burn rates to the case capacity and bullet weight.

Spring time is coming.

Bottom line: at the low velocity your 257 AI is limited to (by case capacity), the bullets will have a trajectory closely akin to a rainbow. And that, my friend, is where a bigger case earns its keep.

 

[No manches"]

Bottom line: at the low velocity your 257 AI is limited to (by case capacity), the bullets will have a trajectory closely akin to a rainbow. ....


REALLY?

 

[wildcatter]

You may have been marginally competent; or the components were not at the level we have available today.

Your' failure is not an absolute truism. 550 years ago most thought the Earth was flat.

I do NOT consider my project a waste of time. At least not mine. target accuracy with faster twists and heavier (for caliber) bullets in larger capacity is a never ending, evolving process.

In this instance, it is just a matter of identifying and matching powder burn rates to the case capacity and bullet weight.

Spring time is coming.

Bottom line: at the low velocity your 257 AI is limited to (by case capacity), the bullets will have a trajectory closely akin to a rainbow. And that, my friend, is where a bigger case earns its keep.

I understand your thirst, been there,,, done that! Trust me when I tell you there is no problem finding a powder that will over power the ability to deliver the speed ACCURATELY, your trying to do! Long range precision shooters have proven that for decades! Unless this about speed, at the cost of useable accuracy?

I can do anything a 25 cal 130 grain bullet is capable of doing with nearly half, the powder your planning on using. Once the accuracy starts opening back up, they are all useless to me. Have Fun, I will be awaiting your results, and there are a bunch of the top long range competitors awaiting as well!

Bottom line is this, I won't be slowing my cartridge down to get the accuracy I'm willing to accept. But with that 1-8 twist barrel, with the cartridge your going to use, you definitely will, and still won't be running the velocity I will be running using what a 1-10 barrel, and the cartridge I will use. With the finest components we have today!

Like it or not, with even todays equipment and components, there is a point of vanishing returns!

 

[wildcatter]

It's in the Making! Being Machined as I speak! Finally dropped off this week, with the specs. The HV Brux 1-10 will be finished @ 26" with 6, 1/4" wide flutes, beginning 2 1/2" back from the muzzle, and ending 4" in front of the receiver. Action and trigger work were already finished and ready, Blueprinted, timed, Bushed firing pin, and a one of a kind under 1# *** trigger. Got 50 rounds waiting for sighting in and ready for load development on them days above freezing.

The final pics for before, afters in a few days!! God willing!


Wish I had the real life results of the finished barrel. I just hope I'm happy with my decision on how many, what size, and where for the flutes. They will be frosted and the perimeter of the barrel will be polished. Looks on this one are "almost" as important as how she shoots? The freak'n wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[RGRobinett]

Back-in-the-day, there was an article by a well credentialed and equipped bloke, discussing [barrel] heat dissipation: his instruments and testing recommended a full sandblast as the quickest 'cooling' barrel finish; polished was dead last. That was/is counterintuitive. For appearance, maybe not what you desire.
A counterintuitive aspect of fluting: shallow radius bottom flutes may/can reduce surface area!! RG

 

[wildcatter]

Back-in-the-day, there was an article by a well credentialed and equipped bloke, discussing [barrel] heat dissipation: his instruments and testing recommended a full sandblast as the quickest 'cooling' barrel finish; polished was dead last. That was/is counterintuitive. For appearance, maybe not what you desire.
A counterintuitive aspect of fluting: shallow radius bottom flutes may/can reduce surface area!! RG

I agree, but this is not a target rifle Randy, I won't sit and smoken prairie dogs with this rig. It will never see more than 8 to 10 shots in a morning I would imagine, and that would be optimistic and very rare! Heat is of no concerned on this gun. This is a true long range varmint rig and all it will be used for. We just want to look pretty doing it!

I'm a firm believer in what yer saying, and would never flute a barrel that would even see mediocre heating,,,, again! I intend to work up loads, shooting it as it will be used. If I planned on 3 or 4 shots in an hour, I would not even think about fluting. But for hunting Varmints with this particular gun I doubt an opportunity every 15 minutes is going to be extremely rare.

I also am building a 338-06 AI that should finish under 7.5# with scope. I have been warned about recoil, and am unconcerned. It will never see more than a 3 shoot group. and will never shoot them without starting with a cold barrel. That is how that rifle will be used and I actually only care about a first shot from a cold barrel.

Some don't understand with this rifle my only concern is will it be capable of good enough accuracy at this weight. I mean there is a reason 17# 300 mags don't see much use for 600 yard competition, they just can't give the accuracy the medium case'd 6mm's can! I know field accuracy won't be easy with this beast.

But any rifle I build I consider real life and what results one needs to expect, hope I'm able to get 3/4" moa from that 338, this 257 I'm pretty sure .1/4" moa should bve pretty easy to get, but again, only concerned with a handful of shots a on a hunt with it, morning or evening, that would be a great hunt.

 

[ISS]

Actually, the notion that a smaller capacity case can produce velocity even close to a bigger case is a fallacy espoused by small case fans. Don't believe that? You could ask Roy Wby if he were still around. Prime example: 300 H&H to 300 WBy velocities. Prime example of increased case capacity and subsequent pressure increase = higher velocities

Truth is, there are only two ways to produce flatter trajectories with any given bullet/case combinations.

1. increase the powder capacity to achieve the same pressure by burning more powder.
2. increase the pressure to achieve the same speed as the larger, lower pressure case.

Both are viable options, and I choose the bigger case path. In addition, I can increase pressure in a bigger case and get higher velocity/flatter trajectory than the high pressure smaller case can.

Many years ago I had the opportunity to attend Ken Oehler's Chronograph School near his home in Texas. There were about six of us there with our own rifles in various calibers. We epoxied transducer strain gauges to the barrel about mid case length and fired rounds. We increased powder charges and watched the readouts in PSI. We could also see the groups sizes grow or shrink in size as the Nodes were found.

You'd blow primer pockets out of a 257 Roberts, even the AI version trying to match starting load velocities in my Banshee.

ISS

 

[wildcatter]

You must start loads at much higher pressure than most!!! But your right, if all you care about is speed, you will definitely out do the 257 AI, I'm after Useable accurate portable, mobile varmint use, with accuracy a huge priority!

The 300 Weatherby mag is great example of over bore waste! much the same as the H&H! The weatherby, and I have a buddy who hands on found this out, only gains it's advantage at the expense of accuracy robbing free bore, and ridiculous amounts of the slowest powders for mediocre advantages!!

Mind you, I say this with a limited experience on this subject to this particular cartridge. But if you consider 100 fps a noticeable increase,,, your easily impressed with something only a chronograph can show! I wasn't, and the accuracy was no where near what the 300 win mag was between the two cartridges.

Much as the 257 AI, about as efficient as I have found, even the 25-06 is bit of waste when any useable advantage is concerned for the gains with fire breathing barrel eating 06. It is far more efficient in my opinion. The weatherby case case consumes way percentage of powder for a very minimal gain in velocity.

But your right if speed is all that meters, the huge case will push them faster. It's been nearly 20 years since my last, but I'm gambling the more useable accuracy will trump and difference in speed for using real varmint bullets.

It also will never deliver the devastating terminal performance the those heavy for caliber 130's that the medium weight varmint bullets will at the extreme yardages I will use them for in this rifle. But that is if it has any chance at the accuracy the 257 Roberts AI is known for, we never her=ar that from those chest pounding cartridges!

 

[ISS]

Perhaps. That said, my Rockchuck shooting is done out far from civilization. Ranches out in the West often run in the thousands of acres, required where the rainfall is less than a foot. Farmers here often settle for two cuttings of hay a season. On my parents farm (177 acres in hay) in Southern Illinois we routinely got five cuttings. Big 70-90 pound square bales. My wife is from Northeastern Montana. Her Uncle could count on one hand, the years he got a second cutting. He had ownership of or lease rights on more than 16,000 acres of grassland and that could support less than 1200 head of Mamma Cows and calves.

My shots will almost always be in excess of a quarter mile once I cull the dumb ones the first month. In 1994 I made my first ever first shot hit and kill past 1000 yards. At 1017 to be exact.
I have read a lot of Live Varmint books from pre-WWII times. Guys like Espey, and Townsend Whelen, and C.S. Landis. Landis mentioned P.O. Ackley "...out West in the Rocky Mountains with his friends shooting from mountaintop to mountaintop...". He disapproved of such, as he termed it "Colorado jocularity and irresponsibility...".
The Whelen book, written by a gentleman whose name escapes me now; has a picture of he and Whelen out in a hay field hunting 'Chucks while patching a tire in his 1925 Packard convertible. He mentioned several occasions where they had shot five or six in an afternoon, a couple past 250 yards. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

How many shots on live varmints in your part of the country can safely be made past 300 yards? I could do that with my 22 Hornet or Borchardt 25-35.

Tell me your average and longest shot from 2024. I had Geovids and a Premier Reticle Boosted 18-42X Leupold with a prototype Christmas Tree Reticle scope on my first Banshee in 1993. In four years I killed nearly 800 Rockchucks. Half of them past 600 yards. It was rough enough high country (that's 6500 feet+

It is a different world where I live. Elevation) where I would often have to throw the old Dodge into four low and chain up the tires to continue. Ever shot a 'Chuck over 12,000 feet elevation? I have, probably a hundred total since 1993.

Short(er) range? Smaller cartridges are best at that. That is why my under 300 yard shots are 223 time. From there to 500, the 25-35 Borchardt. Past that, I bring the heavy ordnance out. 6-284, 25-284, and the 6.5-284.
Then my 257 Banshee.

ISS

 

[17VLD]

I look forward to seeing both of these projects completed. I am also confident both rifles will be extremely effective. The debate of fast twist versus slow twist and all it's merits one way or another is almost as old as shooting itself. One thing for certain is that I truly would like to see Hornady offer a .257 ELD-VT bullet so we can have our cake and eat it too. For now the tipped Hornady 134 may be Rich's Huckleberry.
Matt

 

[ISS]

I have a thousand of the BJ/Sierra 131gr. I'll start there, and be happy with consistent 2/10ths to quarter MOA 5-shot groups at a hundred yards.

God Bless all of you, pro and con for your input.

ISS

 

[wildcatter]

I agree, .2's are my goal, we'll see how it works but that's my expectation as well, as far as range goes, 800 is my absolute most possible field here In NW Ohio, last year farthest opertunity was just over 600, one shot and done, that was with the 1-10 twist 6BR, I did loose one right at 590 yards, went down and had blood, but when you I don't physically kick em, I don't count em!

 

[wildcatter]

Forgot to mention, That is why after last year without the ability to expand beyond 500 yards, no 6mm AI no 257 AI, and trying to push the heavies in them calibers over 3500 to get expansion, I discovered why I always built long range varmint rigs with 1-10 barrels, even 1-12 is better for LR varminting! I can drive the bullets in medium weight fast enough, without settling for less than optimum accuracy, and still retain enough speed for those thinner explosive varmint bullets to help with less than perfect shots beyond 600 yards.

The 1-8 twist barrels with the heavies failed severely at that that task! I might as well as just saved the powder, and lead and done the same thing with 6BR, and will never confuse target applications, with Varmint applications again. I will build something more exact, with the ability to do what I need, with even marginal hits! anything over 3100 fps or so and I had to sacrifice speed to keep accuracy, I will never give up my best accuracy for more speed, thats not why I do this.

Sometimes you have to do it yourself to find the BS you listen to is just that. Or maybe just hitting them is as good as kicking them to some, but to me that's not killing them! Id rather miss if I'm not going to kill it! In 70 years, the 257 AI is the best I've found for that. There are bigger, but they eat barrels rapidly, they are harder to tune loads for exact accuracy, and create way more baggage than I care to deal with! Today, KISS means more to me than working harder for mediocre results, and no better terminal performance, consistency is everything today.

 

[Ackman]

Bottom line: at the low velocity your 257 AI is limited to (by case capacity), the bullets will have a trajectory closely akin to a rainbow. And that, my friend, is where a bigger case earns its keep.

Rainbow trajectory??? Uhhhh.....NO.

 

[No manches"]

^^^^^^ that's what I said

 

[wildcatter]

Rainbow trajectory??? Uhhhh.....NO.

^^^^^^ that's what I said

Really, you mean we need to know how are equipment shoots??? I'd worry far more about the conditions my equipment is facing.

My impacts at any range in that rainbow is as predictable as how many seconds there are in a minute! I learned years ago how to use my Leica Rangefinder. I wish I had that same exact information when clouds come over or the wind changes at ever yardage along it, with thermals and downdrafts, those are my only concerns once I have a properly tuned load.

To me I learned long ago as bow hunter speed is nothing my than a biproduct. Knowing your surroundings is what most use it for to cover up the need to truly understand what those things are telling us! Not where are load is going to hit in that rainbow out to 600 or 800 yards, that is given to us!

 

[wildcatter]

Well we finally have a rifle, Fred worked his magic, and as soon we get some decent weather, we'll see how it shoots, and get some pictures. But fer know this all I got after just picking it up. If it shoots as good as it looks,I'll be impressed!! This lighting really doesn't do it justice, but I really wish I could get Fred to do another one of these stocks, it truly did come out nicer than I had envisioned when I ask him to try it.

The looks were one surprise, but the idea that laminating it, and altering the grain on every other layer would create a stiffer platform was the real purpose of altering the grain, that was the real reason for building this blank needing to blanks to make it. I thought at one time I might have to paint it. After seeing how it looked, I knew I wasn't painting it.

I hope this shoots better than my last, and it should. That rifle was a great varmint rifle beyond 600 yards, even with the components I used back then. In fact I've built 3 rifles trying to better it, but never accomplished that. So that's why 30 years later, I decided to build another.

But instead of a McMillan BR stock, R-P brass, new at the time Nosler BT bullets, on a Remington 722 action with a factory trigger. Were going to have better components, as well as a Savage action, and a better custom trigger.

The old Mcmillan stock was fitted with stainless steel bars running full length of the forearm, with the but hollowed out filled with #12 shot epoxied in. With the 27" barrel it weighed over 20#. This rifle with the fluted barrel, and probably a stiffer platform came in at 12lbs 12oz. as well as being much handier in the field, off a bipod, or bags, not having to drag a mechanical rest should get me more shots alone.

I also this time replaced the 257 Roberts R-P brass, with Lapua 8x57 brass, not just much stronger, but way more consistent! I might shoot those factory made Noslers, but we have some Bibs 87 grain that are more consistent and should make better accuracy on their own. Not to mention another 30 years of experience, with improved powders and primers. I just wish I had a new Pence barrel, but I think the Brux is up to the task.

One thing is for sure, it's time to find out!

 

[No manches"]

Very nice looking Rigg,..
Please, do tell us how it performs

 

[wildcatter]

Thought I would put up a picture of the beginning of this rifles history. Before Fred built a custom stock and trigger for it, blueprinted and timed the new bolt, after brushing it with the small firing pin and hole, and replacing the recoil lug with the HD stainless lug, and finished the Brux HV barrel for it. But this is how I bought it.

A new gun, with a missing Bolt! In 223 cal. in a Muddy Girl youth stock. I hated to ruin a brand new rifle, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, this was one of them times. I think it was worth buying.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

That stock is great looking, how does one come by a stock like that? very nice.