I use whidden hydro form die on mine as it has a long chamber, sent three pieces of fired brass , anneal , put standard brass in die fill with water a strike with dead blow and you have properly head spaced brass. No bullets or powder wasted.
257 Roberts Improved...fire-forming...Powder...Fast or slow ?
- Thread starter dolek
- Start date
I jam bullet in rifling and loaded 4895 safe mid load, if you can keep bullet from slipping with strike of firing pin it works good. Had trouble some times , sick of chasing to range after reloading and reseating round, bought the hydro die and will never go back. Sets headspace perfect , one fire and shoulder finish forms great. I use Nosler +p brass , but will need to anneal brass before hydro form so it will be easier to form. Good news is you won,'t have to worry about case strech at head or head separation ever .
So I am a newby at fire forming. I picked up a 257 AI by sheer accident in an auction. Rifle was obviously a customized left-hand hunting rifle with a Savage 110C action when I bought it. After I received it my FFL dealer and I took it out to the range and fired a new Hornady 257 Roberts round through it. We examined the spent cartridge and notice it fire formed into an AI round.
He indicated that I needed to go out and fire form about 100 257 Bob shells and reload them for the AI with the hunting bullet of my choice. I took five boxes of cartridges out this weekend to form. of the 40 rounds I shot, one cracked at the neck as was expected, but two ruptured near the base (see photo).
Half of these were reloads and may have been too hot. The three ruptured shells (bottom 3) were all reloads. The factory loads were "silver tips" and appeared to work just fine (see #2 from top) I had to stop at two boxes because rifle was getting hot and because each time the shell ruptured at the base, the bolt could not extract the shell and I had to remove and clean the extractor and ramrod the shell out.
Are the reloads too hot or is the a problem with my headspace being to large? I don't want to ruin this nice rifle.
He indicated that I needed to go out and fire form about 100 257 Bob shells and reload them for the AI with the hunting bullet of my choice. I took five boxes of cartridges out this weekend to form. of the 40 rounds I shot, one cracked at the neck as was expected, but two ruptured near the base (see photo).
Half of these were reloads and may have been too hot. The three ruptured shells (bottom 3) were all reloads. The factory loads were "silver tips" and appeared to work just fine (see #2 from top) I had to stop at two boxes because rifle was getting hot and because each time the shell ruptured at the base, the bolt could not extract the shell and I had to remove and clean the extractor and ramrod the shell out.
Are the reloads too hot or is the a problem with my headspace being to large? I don't want to ruin this nice rifle.
The rounds I used were actually old factory Win. Super-speed (mistakenly id'd as reloads) and factory Win. Silvertips. This morning, my father who has reloaded since the 60's and still reloads quite a bit looked at the rounds that I was shooting and he is certain that the ones I thought were reloads were actually factory loads. I had one random Remington thrown into a single box, which caused me to think all of those boxes were reloads. Those are actually all 87 grain short Win. Super-speed soft points. These are considerably shorter bullets than the 100 gr. silver tips, which did not have any problems, so maybe they aren't setting deep enough and it may be a headspace issue.
My dad also suggested using new .257 Bob brass or find some pre-formed .257 AI brass. I have not seen either on the internet and finding them here in SE New Mexico will be impossible. Only thing that is sold here is Brand new Hornady at $75 a box. Not sure my wallet can take shooting those to fire form them.
My father thought he could pull the bullets and reduce the charge. While he has never dabbled in wildcat rounds, he has a good library of old books on reloading. He has an old book that mentions using a reduced charge, then cotton, then something like cream-of-wheat, followed by paraffin to fire form parent cartridges into AI cartridges. Never heard of that but the old book has a bunch of different wildcats (Whelen, Gibbs, and Ackley loads) mentioned along with a description of forming techniques.
My dad also suggested using new .257 Bob brass or find some pre-formed .257 AI brass. I have not seen either on the internet and finding them here in SE New Mexico will be impossible. Only thing that is sold here is Brand new Hornady at $75 a box. Not sure my wallet can take shooting those to fire form them.
My father thought he could pull the bullets and reduce the charge. While he has never dabbled in wildcat rounds, he has a good library of old books on reloading. He has an old book that mentions using a reduced charge, then cotton, then something like cream-of-wheat, followed by paraffin to fire form parent cartridges into AI cartridges. Never heard of that but the old book has a bunch of different wildcats (Whelen, Gibbs, and Ackley loads) mentioned along with a description of forming techniques.
watersfam, you may enjoy reading this as well.
Fireforming Brass Loss/Failure
Any way to avoid this damage or loss? Fireforming in this instance is for a .257AI 40* RP brass IMR4831 45.0gr CCI200 Sierra 117gr SPBT. Thanks, Peter.
forum.accurateshooter.com
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I would start 1.0g less than 257 Roberts max load with the bullet that I was going to shoot, work up in two shot groups increasing load .5g at a time, and absolutely would not use H4831. I would find a max load for the gun. You find a sweet spot where the bullets are touching or going in the same hole.
I killed a lot of animals while fireforming because the fire forming loads are usually 1/2" and less. I was after coyotes, chucks, jack rabbits, and p. dogs.
I killed a lot of animals while fireforming because the fire forming loads are usually 1/2" and less. I was after coyotes, chucks, jack rabbits, and p. dogs.
rickiesrevenge
Silver $$ Contributor
Why not H4831?
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Faster powders will work better, 4350's, Win 760, H414. If I were fire forming with H4831, I would use heavy bullets, and work up a great accuracy load. Usually fire forming loads will be within 50 fps of the formed load because you can load hotter loads fire forming WHERE THE ACCURACY IS.
Look at dolek's partially formed brass, shoulders are not square as he stated. You want accuracy first and foremost, and nothing wrong with hunting while fire forming IF the accuracy is there.
I always fire form with Cream of Wheat and bullseye with a slight crush fit on the shoulder. If my rifle had a chamber that was long, I would neck up to 7mm and form a false shoulder to headspace on.
I use this approach on 280 AI while using Lapau and PMC 30/06 brass. All my varmint cartridges are fire formed while I am shooting varmints:
17 Ackley hornet
223 AI
22/250 AI
6/250 AI
6 Rem AI
It has been a very rare thing to ever have a case split when using a "crush" on the case when fire forming, re lube the bolt lugs every 25 rounds.
I think that it is a good waste of bullets and barrel life to just fire form with bullets blowing out shoulders, but this is a hobby.
Look at dolek's partially formed brass, shoulders are not square as he stated. You want accuracy first and foremost, and nothing wrong with hunting while fire forming IF the accuracy is there.
I always fire form with Cream of Wheat and bullseye with a slight crush fit on the shoulder. If my rifle had a chamber that was long, I would neck up to 7mm and form a false shoulder to headspace on.
I use this approach on 280 AI while using Lapau and PMC 30/06 brass. All my varmint cartridges are fire formed while I am shooting varmints:
17 Ackley hornet
223 AI
22/250 AI
6/250 AI
6 Rem AI
It has been a very rare thing to ever have a case split when using a "crush" on the case when fire forming, re lube the bolt lugs every 25 rounds.
I think that it is a good waste of bullets and barrel life to just fire form with bullets blowing out shoulders, but this is a hobby.
Update on my 257 Roberts AI.
Rifle is a Savage 111 with 24" E.R. Shaw barrel purchased from a member here.
PTG sale reamer with solid pilot was used to AI the chamber. Sightron 4-12X40 Field Target scope.
I started with 7X57 Mauser, PPU brass from Grafs.
Necked to 25 caliber in 257 Roberts FL die.
Nice tight fit when chambered. Marking showed slight contact at neck/shoulder junction. Perfect.
With 2,500 Sierra 75gr HP varmint bullets onhand i chose these forfireforming.
Powder was 43.0gr of IMR 4895.
Bullets seated 0.020" off the lands.
After firing, bolt lifted easily, no marks on heads. For not working up a load, 5 shots at just 1 MOA, i considered good.
Next to actually work up loads.
Rifle is a Savage 111 with 24" E.R. Shaw barrel purchased from a member here.
PTG sale reamer with solid pilot was used to AI the chamber. Sightron 4-12X40 Field Target scope.
I started with 7X57 Mauser, PPU brass from Grafs.
Necked to 25 caliber in 257 Roberts FL die.
Nice tight fit when chambered. Marking showed slight contact at neck/shoulder junction. Perfect.
With 2,500 Sierra 75gr HP varmint bullets onhand i chose these forfireforming.
Powder was 43.0gr of IMR 4895.
Bullets seated 0.020" off the lands.
After firing, bolt lifted easily, no marks on heads. For not working up a load, 5 shots at just 1 MOA, i considered good.
Next to actually work up loads.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Try working up some loads while fire forming, get ready for a shock.
??? Why would i do that?
Case volume is different between the standard & the Ackley.
Hence your powder charge will be on the low side.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
my experience is in these:
17 Ackley Hornet
20 Tactical
223 AI
22/250 AI
6/250 AI
243 AI
6 Rem AI
7/08 Ai
280 AI
6.5 Rem mag AI
Just got in the 257 Roberts AI reamer, dies, and barrel
I worked up loads while fire forming, amazing results in every case. Fire forming loads are hotter than parent case max loads in most cases. Some of the pressure blows out the case.
Forming accuracy load is within 1.0g of the Formed load, with great accuracy. Speed is also not too far apart between the fire forming load and the formed load.
Best of luck to you!
Keith
17 Ackley Hornet
20 Tactical
223 AI
22/250 AI
6/250 AI
243 AI
6 Rem AI
7/08 Ai
280 AI
6.5 Rem mag AI
Just got in the 257 Roberts AI reamer, dies, and barrel
I worked up loads while fire forming, amazing results in every case. Fire forming loads are hotter than parent case max loads in most cases. Some of the pressure blows out the case.
Forming accuracy load is within 1.0g of the Formed load, with great accuracy. Speed is also not too far apart between the fire forming load and the formed load.
Best of luck to you!
Keith
I used IMR4451, trying to reduce the copper fowling on a new barrel. Also used Trail Boss. That was interesting as it sounded like there was a suppressor on the barrel. Filled case to the bottom of the bullet. 1250 fps.
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