Response to F Class at Shot

[Ned Ludd]

Fair point Ned. All I can see is what's available to me. 2 years ago, we had 30ish shooters at our club matches.
Now it's 6 - 8.
But again, we have different points. You're referring to " state and regional" matches, where I'm referring to the grass route club matches where tomorrow's shooters come from.

I'm referring to F-Class as a whole. The majority of shooters that participate in F-Class matches at the state, regional, and national level don't generally just show up to a big state, regional, or national match for their very first F-Class experience. They almost always have already been participating at the local level prior to attending such a match. In fact, most of the areas I look at are clearly experiencing an increase in F-Class participation, not a decrease, and that includes at the local level.

As I mentioned previously, shooting in any discipline can wax and wane in specific areas, especially at the local level. As shooters in a given area age, it can cause a decrease in attendance. When a particularly effective and well-liked match director steps down, it can affect attendance. The cost and availability reloading components can affect participation. In fact, there are literally dozens of reasons why participation in a specific club might decrease in a fairly short time frame. That doesn't necessarily mean the sport as a whole is in decline. The good news is that it is usually possible to reverse a localized attendance issue with a little work. If someone has an issue with declining attendance at the local level, the first thing they need to do is interview the people that stopped attending to find out why they stopped attending. If they find there are some common reasons underlying the drop in attendance, then those reasons can be addressed. Regardless, that is a whole different issue than the notion that it would be wise to nudge F-Class in the same direction that PRS has taken. I for one do not think that would be a good idea.

 

[kindabitey]

First, I'd like to state that I know as much about F-Class and BR as I do about nuclear propulsion in a submarine. Also, I mainly shoot PRS type matches.
Having read some of the post in this and the "F-Class at Shot Show" thread, looks to me like some of the participants in F-C and BR aren't very welcoming of other shooting sports. The "my way or the highway" attitude in ALL shooting sports needs to go away. And I've seen some of it in PRS as well.
We're at a point where we need to be working together to advance all shooting sports. Doesn't matter if it's
handguns, shotguns, 2 gun, 3 gun, air rifles, or whatever.

Don't like (insert shooting discipline)? That's cool. I don't like spinach, but I'm not going to say you're stupid for eating it.

 

[Mccoul]

Narrow minds invade so many other parts of our life as well.
But at 77, I guess its like arthritis. it ain't going away. I still hit the mark but so much slower these days. LOL.
Keep shooting and enjoy.

 

[jthor]

Some folks at shooting forums are talking as if F-Class shooting is about to kick the bucket. IMO, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just look around, big F-Class matches often fill up in a matter of days, if not hours. Where's the problem? Powders that are commonly-used by F-Class shooters, as well as bullets, primers, brass, and everything else used to reload sells out in minutes to hours as soon as it becomes available. That happens because people are SHOOTING...they are using these components, not sitting at home. So again, where's the problem? Where's this supposed lack of attendance that impacting F-Class nationwide? There may be some programs where attendance is down, but that is not what is happening nationwide. Not even close. Further, it is normal for attendence at F-Class events to wax and wane over time, especially at the local level. Fluctuation in attendance can happen locally for numerous reasons, none of which necessarily signify that F-Class as a whole is going down the tubes. It's also important to remember that attendance at a lot of different events took a big hit due to COVID. In some respects, we are all still struggling to overcome that. Nonetheless, I'm not seeing any signs that F-Class is about dry up and go away.

My point here is this, it seems as though some are trying to address a problem that doesn't even exist. Sure, one can do things locally to stimulate attendance at a given match. In my experience, the best way to do that is to have a good match director that builds a strong program that makes people want to attend matches. That's not any kind of gimmick or new take on F-Class shooting, but it takes hard work over period of time to build up a program.

So why am I mentioning this? I've heard a lot of moaning and gnashing of teeth recently from people when comparing F-Class to PRS. In part, this response was prompted by F-Class John's video at Shot Show where few of the interviewees actually knew anything about F-Class shooting. So what? Is that really the barometer by which F-Class should be evaluated? PRS-style events have become very popular, no doubt about it. But I don't expect everyone involved in the shooting industry to know about F-Class. Neither do I expect all PRS shooters to be familiar with F-Class. Why should they, if they don't participate? Frankly, I don't want F-Class to become what PRS has become, and people need to be very careful if they think that would be a good idea. I am in no way bashing PRS with that statement. They have built up their discipline very well and I totally respect what they are doing. But PRS is not my personal cup of tea. I have no interest in shooting for money. I really have no interest shooting with large crowds for whom prize money is at least one of the important reasons for their attendance. I don't really care about the prize table...I am already able to buy exactly what I want, and my specific personal equipment choices are rarely found on a prize table, anyhow. I don't care whether large numbers of vendors or sponsors show up at matches. Actually, I'd rather they didn't. In other words, I don't care for the commercialization of the shooting sports. Having crazy prize tables and significant amounts of money as prizes comes with a cost. PRS has made it work well for themselves, but that's a road down which I'd rather F-Class didn't venture. In fact, I generally don't even attend matches where money is the major prize. I have no interest. You want me to participate? Offer a good trophy for the winners. Commercial trophies and/or medallions are fine, but custom made trophies, maybe with something specific or notable about the venue, are even better. A trophy is a tangible record of accomplishment. Money is not.

To summarize, I question the basic premise whether F-Class shooting is in a decline. I believe we're seeing numbers of F-Class shooters nationwide that are greater than ever before, which suggests it isn't. Trying to fix something that isn't broken usually ends up badly. Trying to turn F-Class into PRS-style events in terms of the number of participants and the prizes/payouts would really be a huge mistake in my opinion.

For your sport I believe your logic is severely flawed and that sort of thought process will lead to its decline.

Saying my sport is healthy because 400 people show up to event isn’t a good sign of health or population of shooters. Y’all don’t have many big events so of course the few events yall have will fill up fast; it’s a focal point. Fill up matches like that every weekend, it won’t happen with your current population. If one were to say Service Rifle is in a good spot because 900 people showed up for nationals at Camp Perry yet the local levels get very little attendance you would be lying to yourself. The last local SR match I went to was severely depressing because only 6 people showed up. With numbers like that why would people show up to a match? A part of going to matches, other than competing is the social aspect.

You mentioned you don’t want commercialization, but that is at the core how you grow the sport. SR used to have nice prizes at Camp Perry, but as attendance has died over time those prizes have gone away and so has commercial row.

Additionally, there’s only one series in PRS that has cash as a prize and that’s the AG Cup which has a buy in for every match if you want to be apart of that. They also have a badass trophy. The PRS finale does has cash for the winners though which at that point is deserved over an 800 round +/- Agg of their shooting season.

Your community along with Bench Rest is known for being gate keepers of information which isn’t too inviting. Folks like FClass John have tried their hardest to share information, trials and errors, and bring more people into it. John’s video pointed out FClass has some sort of PR problem. Your mindset will do nothing, but set your sport back and hinder growth.

 

[Eagle Six]

Has the F-Class body, either inside of the NRA or outside, ever done a survey or questionnaire of the competitors to determine what they may want changed or what they want to stay the same? I've read almost everything thread and post on F-Class for the past few years in this forum and I would venture to say the answer to my question is, No, but I'm asking the question for confirmation.

 

[K22]

Any effort to expand the shooting sports is a positive in my view. While I have never shot F-Class and never will, I like to see all disciplines grow and flourish. The reason is obvious, the more shooters the more political clout to keep the 2nd amendment healthy.

I've been involved with the sporting sports, i.e., hunting, competitive shooting, and recreational shooting for over 50+ years and I have noticed a definite trend laterly. Each year I see less and less shooters interested in precision shooting and marksmanship skills. This is most prevalent at the clubs I belong at the pistol ranges. Shooter's blast away with full magazine sequences spraying shots all over the "target" and often on the club's target backers.

I see the same trend, albeit to a lesser extent, at the rifle ranges, shooting at metal plates with AR's. A few years ago, we tried to initiate a precision rifle competition at one club, shooting off a bipod (attached to rifle), off the bench at 100 yards. It quickly fizzled due to lack of interest. NRA Precision Pistol is dead at one of my clubs and on "life support" at the other.

The two clubs I belong to have limited rifle ranges, one is 100 yards the other 200 yards. This is fairly typically of the clubs in my area. I don't know any members who understand F Class shooting let along shoot the discipline. Add to the fact that F Class requires above average rifles / ammo / and skills to be competitive, I am not surprised that the sport may not be growing. When you couple the constraints and demands of F Class with the lack of general interest in precision shooting and marksmanship, this adds another level of burden to such disciplines.

 

[SSchnd]

Thanks to a very generous friend @jeffporter I am a F Class T/R FNG and have one official MR match under my belt. Looking to hit the first CIHPRS match at Atterbury in March hopefully.
Shoot sling there coming from service rifle background we like to try other options and disciplines.
Over on NM forum there is distain for F shooters
I love shooting XTC but have lost some desire and am finding the precision of F exhilarating. We love to see how we can tune different rifles and during the Fall Classic MR prone match it dawned on me how much wind calling matters in F
Someone said it far better than I but can’t we just build the shooting sports as a whole and stop Ford Vs Chevy debate
I just wanna shoot competition matches and learn from those been doing it a while
Build more relationships with like minded folk
I was trying what I call free recoil and was working up a load last weekend after doing a couple of things and was not happy leaving the range

I’ve been trying to find information via any source possible on rifle handling and process of shooting this rifle
Yesterday after reading the not new rule and struggling with free recoil I mounted the rifle and had far better results
I am trying not to learn bad rifle handling skills but it’s not like we have F class all over here in central land of Lincoln

Carry on
Hopefully I continue on and add one more notch to the proverbial F class roster
Trust me I catch a lot of crap for F from my good sling shooting friends

 

[Ned Ludd]

For your sport I believe your logic is severely flawed and that sort of thought process will lead to its decline.

Saying my sport is healthy because 400 people show up to event isn’t a good sign of health or population of shooters. Y’all don’t have many big events so of course the few events yall have will fill up fast; it’s a focal point. Fill up matches like that every weekend, it won’t happen with your current population. If one were to say Service Rifle is in a good spot because 900 people showed up for nationals at Camp Perry yet the local levels get very little attendance you would be lying to yourself. The last local SR match I went to was severely depressing because only 6 people showed up. With numbers like that why would people show up to a match? A part of going to matches, other than competing is the social aspect.

You mentioned you don’t want commercialization, but that is at the core how you grow the sport. SR used to have nice prizes at Camp Perry, but as attendance has died over time those prizes have gone away and so has commercial row.

Additionally, there’s only one series in PRS that has cash as a prize and that’s the AG Cup which has a buy in for every match if you want to be apart of that. They also have a badass trophy. The PRS finale does has cash for the winners though which at that point is deserved over an 800 round +/- Agg of their shooting season.

Your community along with Bench Rest is known for being gate keepers of information which isn’t too inviting. Folks like FClass John have tried their hardest to share information, trials and errors, and bring more people into it. John’s video pointed out FClass has some sort of PR problem. Your mindset will do nothing, but set your sport back and hinder growth.

You believe my logic is severely flawed because you think everyone should want their sport to grow like PRS has grown. Not everyone wants that kind of growth, nor does eveyone believe it is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, but your logic is flawed if think it's the only way to do things and everyone should just keep quiet and go along with it. I don't want F-Class turning into a circus, which is exactly where the kind of commercialization you're describing is likely to take it.

 

[jthor]

You believe my logic is severely flawed because you think everyone should want their sport to grow like PRS has grown. Not everyone wants that kind of growth, nor does eveyone believe it is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, but your logic is flawed if think it's the only way to do things and everyone should just keep quiet and go along with it. I don't want F-Class turning into a circus, which is exactly where the kind of commercialization you're describing is likely to take it.

Your logic is flawed and will cause the death of your sport. The sport is better off losing a few people and gaining several in its place than sitting in limbo.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Your logic is flawed and will cause the death of your sport. The sport is better off losing a few people and gaining several in its place than sitting in limbo.

Your uninformed OPINION is what is flawed. F-Class shooting IS, and WILL be doing just fine. Now you've said your piece, so give it a rest.

 

[jthor]

Your uninformed OPINION is what is flawed. F-Clas shooting IS, and WILL be doing just fine. Now you've said your piece, so give it a rest.

Clearly something is wrong when many of your local clubs are dying and getting newer members to shoot your sport has become a challenge. Yes, your logic is certainly flawed. That’s like owning a business and saying it’s the customers fault my business isn’t growing and not your business practices. This is the same thing that is killing service rifle.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Clearly something is wrong when many of your local clubs are dying and getting newer members to shoot your sport has become a challenge. Yes, your logic is certainly flawed. That’s like owning a business and saying it’s the customers fault my business isn’t growing and not your business practices. This is the same thing that is killing service rifle.

Your logic is flawed. You think everyone in F-Class wants PRS style matches. They don't. You don't know about F-Class what you think you know. You can't stand it that someone disagrees with you and so you keep going on beating a dead horse, thinking that that will force agreement or somehow make your argument stronger. That alone makes any argument you put forth highly suspect. F-Class IS and WILL be doing just fine without your advice.

 

[Medic505]

Did the Southwest Nationals fill up this year? I guess I could go to practascore and look but it's a pia to sign in. The sling/open/TR numbers will again be interesting,

 

[ronsatspokane]

Did the Southwest Nationals fill up this year? I guess I could go to practascore and look but it's a pia to sign in. The sling/open/TR numbers will again be interesting,

I have not checked but was told that it did. Not in 6 minutes like before Covid. That's a fun match in the dead of winter down in Phoenix. It's impressive to see 100 firing points where everyone is firing at the same time and 4 relays in total. When you are in the pits at one end, you can't really see the other end if you are looking inside the target frames. It a huge facility. The only thing I'd like to see is electronic targets. That would be rather spendy for that facility.

 

[jthor]

Your logic is flawed. You think everyone in F-Class wants PRS style matches. They don't. You don't know about F-Class what you think you know. You can't stand it that someone disagrees with you and so you keep going on beating a dead horse, thinking that that will force agreement or somehow make your argument stronger. That alone makes any argument you put forth highly suspect. F-Class IS and WILL be doing just fine without your advice.

Never said I wanted FClass to be like PRS. Every sport is subject to economics and if attendance dies so do the companies that help support it; look at Compass Lake Engineering for the most recent public high power death.

Things like V2 Finale, prize tables and more companies invested in your sport will help increase attendance and build bigger local clubs. Clubs feed the national events. Those pushing towards the direction abone are doing your sport good. Your stance for “honor and glory” and not changing anything is what is killing high power sports across the board. So do those who are trying to improve your sport a favor and stay out of their way.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Never said I wanted FClass to be like PRS. Every sport is subject to economics and if attendance dies so do the companies that help support it; look at Compass Lake Engineering for the most recent public high power death.

Things like V2 Finale, prize tables and more companies invested in your sport will help increase attendance and build bigger local clubs. Clubs feed the national events. Those pushing towards the direction abone are doing your sport good. Your stance for “honor and glory” and not changing anything is what is killing high power sports across the board. So do those who are trying to improve your sport a favor and stay out of their way.

Do me a favor and give your proselytizing a rest. Your obviously don't know what is best for F-Class, and it's becoming pretty obvious you have an agenda. F-Class is doing just fine, and will continue to do just fine without being turned into a circus.

 

[Eagle Six]

I have been reading this thread and enjoying the comments, but must admit the pissing match is getting boring and each has by far made their point. I'll keep reading because there are some really good observations and great suggestions.

 

[Steve Jennings]

Just imagine how many new shooters would be lining up to do F-Class if they were told we have an ONLY 75 PAGE rule book.

 

[Fclassfool]

I'd blur out his cell number he might not want that plastered all over the internet

 

[Texas Solo]

I'd blur out his cell number he might not want that plastered all over the internet

Thanks, my bad. Have deleted post.