Response to F Class at Shot

[Will Henry]

At its inception, the rules for "F" class could have been printed on a business card. Competitions like that attract people from a broad base. Every added page limits the pool. WH

 

[wyshadow]

Years ago (2012'ish) I built an F-class savage gun and wanted to try competing in 1,000 yards. I couldn't for the life me find a place to sign up for a match. I tried emailing and leaving voice messages to Phoenix and Raton but crickets. No one would give me any information on how to sign up for a match. So I sold the gun and lost interest.
Years went by and I started hearing about all the hate the 6.5 CM was getting. By this time I was heavily in to PCP's and powder burners started to interest me again. This time I was interested in PRS matches and there were several matches very close to me.
I attained my first match last year and I was hooked. The friendly atmosphere, the fast pace and pressure when you're shooting, and the ringing of steel was very fun. I started practicing at my local shooting range a lot and I befriended several shooters who were also in to PRS. We would meet at the range or out in the desert for a change of scenery and setup steel targets. Ringing steel with friends on the weekends was something to look forward to.
Once the steel targets were setup,I/we would invite anyone there at the shooting range to join us for a friendly competition. Mostly everyone there enjoyed shooting with us and we made more friends in the process.
IMO you don't get this with F-class shooting. My idea of F-class is a solitary hobby with very expensive equipment. You have a highly specialized rifle setup for just one thing, and most people don't want that and this leads to another reason why PRS type matches are so popular. The type of rifle used in PRS can be used for hunting. I was talking to shooting buddy and I asked him if he also hunted. He said he did and he used his PRS rifle to hunt with. He just uses a different bullet and off he goes. He said he knows everything about his rifle and wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at an animal with it.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Years ago (2012'ish) I built an F-class savage gun and wanted to try competing in 1,000 yards. I couldn't for the life me find a place to sign up for a match. I tried emailing and leaving voice messages to Phoenix and Raton but crickets. No one would give me any information on how to sign up for a match. So I sold the gun and lost interest.
Years went by and I started hearing about all the hate the 6.5 CM was getting. By this time I was heavily in to PCP's and powder burners started to interest me again. This time I was interested in PRS matches and there were several matches very close to me.
I attained my first match last year and I was hooked. The friendly atmosphere, the fast pace and pressure when you're shooting, and the ringing of steel was very fun. I started practicing at my local shooting range a lot and I befriended several shooters who were also in to PRS. We would meet at the range or out in the desert for a change of scenery and setup steel targets. Ringing steel with friends on the weekends was something to look forward to.
Once the steel targets were setup,I/we would invite anyone there at the shooting range to join us for a friendly competition. Mostly everyone there enjoyed shooting with us and we made more friends in the process.
IMO you don't get this with F-class shooting. My idea of F-class is a solitary hobby with very expensive equipment. You have a highly specialized rifle setup for just one thing, and most people don't want that and this leads to another reason why PRS type matches are so popular. The type of rifle used in PRS can be used for hunting. I was talking to shooting buddy and I asked him if he also hunted. He said he did and he used his PRS rifle to hunt with. He just uses a different bullet and off he goes. He said he knows everything about his rifle and wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at an animal with it.

I'm confused. You say you built a Savage for F Class rifle and later you talk about how F Class requires very expensive equipment? Savage rifles are cheap relatively speaking. A stock factory built Savage F Class rifle can be had for the price most PRS guys spend on a chassis alone and you will find them at a lot of F Class matches. If you are shooting FTR all you need is a bipod and a rear bag. Doesn't get much cheaper. I think there are a number of misconceptions in both camps surrounding this subject. You can spend as much or as little as you choose in either pursuit.

I was shooting next to a PRS shooter at the range one day a while back. He was testing a new chassis. He could not get the mag out and in a fit of rage started smashing the rifle on the bench with a 2000+ scope taking the brunt of the beating. Now do I think that all PRS shooters are hot heads with more money than sense? Of course not. And most F Class shooters are not solitary individuals with poor communications skills.

 

[wyshadow]

I'm confused. You say you built a Savage for F Class rifle and later you talk about how F Class requires very expensive equipment?

At the time I thought it was an F Class rifle but today I know it wasn't. At the time I couldn't have known because I didn't find any matches. Back then I thought $800 was very expensive for rifle.

 

[Turkeytider]

I'm confused. You say you built a Savage for F Class rifle and later you talk about how F Class requires very expensive equipment? Savage rifles are cheap relatively speaking. A stock factory built Savage F Class rifle can be had for the price most PRS guys spend on a chassis alone and you will find them at a lot of F Class matches. If you are shooting FTR all you need is a bipod and a rear bag. Doesn't get much cheaper. I think there are a number of misconceptions in both camps surrounding this subject. You can spend as much or as little as you choose in either pursuit.

I was shooting next to a PRS shooter at the range one day a while back. He was testing a new chassis. He could not get the mag out and in a fit of rage started smashing the rifle on the bench with a 2000+ scope taking the brunt of the beating. Now do I think that all PRS shooters are hot heads with more money than sense? Of course not. And most F Class shooters are not solitary individuals with poor communications skills.

LOL!! As you may know, you can meet the type of guy like the PRS shooter you describe in just about any hobby or pastime. My experience has been that these individuals usually take themselves and whatever it is that they are doing entirely too seriously. Always makes me wonder how they react when something really important in life goes sideways!

 

[divingin]

I've been involved with the sporting sports, i.e., hunting, competitive shooting, and recreational shooting for over 50+ years and I have noticed a definite trend laterly. Each year I see less and less shooters interested in precision shooting and marksmanship skills. This is most prevalent at the clubs I belong at the pistol ranges. Shooter's blast away with full magazine sequences spraying shots all over the "target" and often on the club's target backers.

I suspect that part (perhaps a lot) of this is driven by the huge pandemic surge in gun sales a few years back. Brought in a crap-load of new gun owners with little idea of what they were doing, and less of an idea as to where they were trying to get to.

 

[K22]

I suspect that part (perhaps a lot) of this is driven by the huge pandemic surge in gun sales a few years back. Brought in a crap-load of new gun owners with little idea of what they were doing, and less of an idea as to where they were trying to get to.

This is especially true from what I have seen on the pistol range. New shooter's buying guns to protect themselves over fear of the rising crimes rates and lack of civil control. They have no idea regarding the laws regarding the use of deadly force let alone tactical defensive pistol skills. Spraying a 30 x 30" target backer at 10 yards with a full magazine is the normal routine.

 

[ronsatspokane]

At the time I thought it was an F Class rifle but today I know it wasn't. At the time I couldn't have known because I didn't find any matches. Back then I thought $800 was very expensive for rifle.

It seems that PRS chassis alone are in the $1200 range. I have a couple of KR Bravo's, they are cheap at $400 or so but they do not have the street cred in the PRS ranks to count as a serious piece of equipment. I don't see a lot of difference between the cost of PRS guns and F Class guns these days.

 

[ronsatspokane]

LOL!! As you may know, you can meet the type of guy like the PRS shooter you describe in just about any hobby or pastime. My experience has been that these individuals usually take themselves and whatever it is that they are doing entirely too seriously. Always makes me wonder how they react when something really important in life goes sideways!

Yeah, I wonder about that as well. When a person has a fuse that short they should be getting treatment for something. I know other PRS shooters as well, really good guys.

 

[wyshadow]

It seems that PRS chassis alone are in the $1200 range. I have a couple of KR Bravo's, they are cheap at $400 or so but they do not have the street cred in the PRS ranks to count as a serious piece of equipment. I don't see a lot of difference between the cost of PRS guns and F Class guns these days.

Buying the chassis and action are the cheapest components. The barrels, bullets, powder, primers, and cases are what's expensive. From what I was told, most of the PRS targets are MOA in size and some targets are 2 MOA. So most rifles are accurate enough to enter most matches. A shooter could build or buy a rifle and is able to shoot one or two seasons with one barrel.
Now for BR or F Class, to be competitive, you need several barrels in one season. According to the pro shooters on YouTube, they only put 700 or less bullets in one barrel. To me 500 bullets I use to find a good load, figure out my bullet drop, and practice before a match. This is what I gather about BR or F Class because I never competed.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Buying the chassis and action are the cheapest components. The barrels, bullets, powder, primers, and cases are what's expensive. From what I was told, most of the PRS targets are MOA in size and some targets are 2 MOA. So most rifles are accurate enough to enter most matches. A shooter could build or buy a rifle and is able to shoot one or two seasons with one barrel.
Now for BR or F Class, to be competitive, you need several barrels in one season. According to the pro shooters on YouTube, they only put 700 or less bullets in one barrel. To me 500 bullets I use to find a good load, figure out my bullet drop, and practice before a match. This is what I gather about BR or F Class because I never competed.

A BAT VR action is ~$1800. I have one and was thinking about another. The price made my sphincter pucker so I went with Solus at $800. A chassis runs $900 to over $2000. Not cheap in my book. Not when I bought the Solus and picked up a takeoff B14 stock for around $200. My cost $1000. Cheaper than many folks are spending on just the chassis. Add a 6 BRA screw on barrel and I'm up to $1300. Add a 6 BR specific mag (set the cartridge forward) and I'm up to $1400. I did shoot it in an F Class match but it was just for a test. It will be the one I use if I shoot a PRS match.

The gun I shoot at mid range usually is also a 6 BRA that I bought used for $1800. Haverkamp action set in an X Ring stock, came with 3 barrels, 400 rounds of mostly fire formed Lapua brass (some of it was loaded for fire forming), 500 EPS 106 grain bullets and dies. It was a deal. That rifle cleaned 3 targets with 48 X's two years ago. Of course Tod Hendricks beat me by 2 X's. But then there is a reason he is a top national and world shooter.

As far as several barrels a season for a given rifle in F Class? That sounds like like a 7 SAUM or a caliber rarely seen in F Class. I generally run my barrels 2 seasons and swap them at 1500 to 2000 rounds. One barrel I shot for 3 years, it had over 3000 rounds on it before the groups started opening up. It was fire cracked a third of the way up the barrel when I retired it.

 

[jackieschmidt]

About 10 years ago At New Braunfels, a bunch of us saw a rather well known and hot headed shooter, (a real psycho), throw a really nice Panda 6PPC into the back of his pickup from about 15 feet away.

In any endeavor where there are winners and losers, there are those that can’t take the losing part. The sooner they quit,, the better.

 

[Dgd6mm]

About 10 years ago At New Braunfels, a bunch of us saw a rather well known and hot headed shooter, (a real psycho), throw a really nice Panda 6PPC into the back of his pickup from about 15 feet away.

In any endeavor where there are winners and losers, there are those that can’t take the losing part. The sooner they quit,, the better.

The old saying, If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[jthor]

It seems that PRS chassis alone are in the $1200 range. I have a couple of KR Bravo's, they are cheap at $400 or so but they do not have the street cred in the PRS ranks to count as a serious piece of equipment. I don't see a lot of difference between the cost of PRS guns and F Class guns these days.

The Bravo is okay for beginners or a hunting rig, but is limited in its ability to properly balance the rifle; typically that’s around 4” infront of the mag well. My PRS rigs cost a little over 8k each and north of 9k with a suppressor for a suppressor only match. You can certainly start shooting much cheaper with a bergara b14 HMR and so, but at some point if you want to start being competitive you will want to build something custom. Same as Fclass with folks starting with starter rigs and building something custom when they want to invest more.

 

[Dave M.]

Clearly something is wrong when many of your local clubs are dying and getting newer members to shoot your sport has become a challenge. Yes, your logic is certainly flawed. That’s like owning a business and saying it’s the customers fault my business isn’t growing and not your business practices. This is the same thing that is killing service rifle.

Geez guys….can’t we just agree that both of your logics are flawed in the other’s viewpoint?? I feel like I’m watching a political ping pong match between my super republican gun toting brother and our super liberal anti-maga LGBTQ+ cousin (I seriously don’t know which letter he is because I think at least 3 and possibly 4 of them apply).
None of my best friends would always argue with people and he’d end up saying “well, your opinion is wrong”
Which always left me laughing because by definition an opinion can never be wrong. lol
Now kiss and makeup and all agree that we are fighting a bigger cause which is slow and methodical deterioration of all guns in general by bleeding heart liberal folks with very deep pockets.

Dave

 

[jthor]

Geez guys….can’t we just agree that both of your logics are flawed in the other’s viewpoint?? I feel like I’m watching a political ping pong match between my super republican gun toting brother and our super liberal anti-maga LGBTQ+ cousin (I seriously don’t know which letter he is because I think at least 3 and possibly 4 of them apply).
None of my best friends would always argue with people and he’d end up saying “well, your opinion is wrong”
Which always left me laughing because by definition an opinion can never be wrong. lol
Now kiss and makeup and all agree that we are fighting a bigger cause which is slow and methodical deterioration of all guns in general by bleeding heart liberal folks with very deep pockets.

Dave

I believe we stopped discussing it and here you are bringing it back up.

 

[ronsatspokane]

The Bravo is okay for beginners or a hunting rig, but is limited in its ability to properly balance the rifle; typically that’s around 4” infront of the mag well. My PRS rigs cost a little over 8k each and north of 9k with a suppressor for a suppressor only match. You can certainly start shooting much cheaper with a bergara b14 HMR and so, but at some point if you want to start being competitive you will want to build something custom. Same as Fclass with folks starting with starter rigs and building something custom when they want to invest more.

That's what I'm seeing as well. Really no difference between the two from the cost of the rifle and the scope.

 

[Xerothermic]

My shooting career was reborn when I found F Class. Physical injuries prevented me from shooting CMP any longer. That was 10 years ago. I achieved High Master last year after a 3 year absence due to family issues, retirement & moving. It deeply sadness me the see the decline in F Class.
We need more exposure as evidenced in F Class John's post.

So, I have written John Scouten this letter. Probably won't get anywhere, but at least I tried.


John,
1st, my condolences at the loss of your father. We all really liked him.

Concerning F Class.....
Participation has taken a huge hit since PRS has come of age. The younger guys gravitate to the shoot & move stuff more than the older guys of F Class. Still, we are a talented bunch. We work just as hard at the bench, and wind reading skills. We build rifles that are just as technical as the PRS stuff.
The money is in PRS now. That's simply because the sponsors go where the people are. I get that from a business standpoint, but so many people would love F Class if they even knew what it was.

Please go to AccurateShooter.com
and read the thread on F Class at Shot Show. It's pathetic how many industry guys didn't know what F Class was.

Would your team consider doing a show from a big F Class match?
The Southwest Nationals brings the best shooters from everywhere, internationally! You should interview Eric Cortina from Texas. Thomas "Speedy" Gonzales (benchrest hall of fame) would be another good interview. You can check them both out on YouTube.

Thank you for listening sir.
The

This is my perspective only. I went to the February 2014 SW AZ Nationals as a spectator and it was kind of boring actually. I wanted to see what and how the individuals were shooting live but that's hard to do without a good spotting scope, which I don't have currently. Electronic targets would be cool in that real-time results could be transmitted to everyone's cell phones and not just the competitor's electronics. I don't need to hear the trade secrets dialog but the visual would be nice to get spectators more involved.

Would this garner more shooter's to the sport? I think so . . . maybe. Maybe not, but the competitors have to come from somewhere and it couldn't hurt having more exposure. YouTube videos are okay but seeing it live works for me.

Have lawn-chair will travel. Within reason. I'm old.