Response to F Class at Shot

[Texas Solo]

My shooting career was reborn when I found F Class. Physical injuries prevented me from shooting CMP any longer. That was 10 years ago. I achieved High Master last year after a 3 year absence due to family issues, retirement & moving. It deeply sadness me the see the decline in F Class.
We need more exposure as evidenced in F Class John's post.

So, I have written John Scouten this letter. Probably won't get anywhere, but at least I tried.


John,
1st, my condolences at the loss of your father. We all really liked him.

Concerning F Class.....
Participation has taken a huge hit since PRS has come of age. The younger guys gravitate to the shoot & move stuff more than the older guys of F Class. Still, we are a talented bunch. We work just as hard at the bench, and wind reading skills. We build rifles that are just as technical as the PRS stuff.
The money is in PRS now. That's simply because the sponsors go where the people are. I get that from a business standpoint, but so many people would love F Class if they even knew what it was.

Please go to AccurateShooter.com
and read the thread on F Class at Shot Show. It's pathetic how many industry guys didn't know what F Class was.

Would your team consider doing a show from a big F Class match?
The Southwest Nationals brings the best shooters from everywhere, internationally! You should interview Eric Cortina from Texas. Thomas "Speedy" Gonzales (benchrest hall of fame) would be another good interview. You can check them both out on YouTube.

Thank you for listening sir.
The

 

[FeMan]

From my perspective, F-Class has two things that limit its popularity and participation. One is the lack of facilities suitable for matches, particularly ranges with manned pits. The use of E-targets help with this to some degree.

The second, and in my opinion much larger issue, is lack of a central source for match information. I would love to shoot a LOT more and I don't mind traveling 500 miles to do so. But I have found the information about matches is extremely difficult to tap into. If I hear about a match, its usually after its over.

Most people will not invest in the equipment and practice if they cant shoot regularly. To help grow the discipline, I think it needs a common, centralized source where all matches are listed and the folks running the match provided some basic information about it.

 

[Texas Solo]

My club is only 300yds. But we are currently working on expanding that too 600yds with berms at 200, 300 & 600.
We have plans to go to 1000yds in the next 5 years.
Our hope is that a 600yd range will increase our traffic in both F class & NRA Service Rifle. We will have target pits with pullers, not electronic.
We're in Central Alabama. There's nowhere close to shoot 600yds.

I will be posting as soon as the new range is up and running.

 

[F Class John]

The second, and in my opinion much larger issue, is lack of a central source for match information. I would love to shoot a LOT more and I don't mind traveling 500 miles to do so. But I have found the information about matches is extremely difficult to tap into. If I hear about a match, its usually after its over.

I totally agree and that's where Matt Peetz and myself have worked to put together resources best we can but it's really tough. But both of us are at the mercy of people telling us about their ranges or matches.
https://www.fclass.info/ and https://www.fclassjohn.com/find-matches

As far as promoting disciplines, with PRS it's a private company and not affiliated with the NRA so they can pivot, market and promote a lot differently than those under the NRA like F Class / High Power.

F Class is also tough as said before since it's a KD (Known Distance) match as opposed to PRS (or any of it's variants) which can be done in just about anywhere it's safe to shoot (ranges, farms, the hills, etc). It's a lot more expensive to build a KD range with firing lines, pits and more versus showing up to a random area or range and setting up a PRS style match.

 

[FeMan]

I applaud what you are doing John. Thanks and please keep it up! This is critical.

The second part to the equation though is that the pages that are linked, are almost all dead ends. I clicked on five or so and was not able to find any information on F-Class matches looking through "Disciplines" and "Calendars" for anything drivable for me (N. CA or Nevada or Oregon). I will dig more and see if I am missing something as that is possible, but prior efforts to mine information from these links was fruitless for me.

Again, thank you for what you are trying to do. I appreciate it and don't want to come across as a whiner!

 

[F Class John]

I applaud what you are doing John. Thanks and please keep it up! This is critical.

The second part to the equation though is that the pages that are linked, are almost all dead ends. I clicked on five or so and was not able to find any information on F-Class matches looking through "Disciplines" and "Calendars" for anything drivable for me (N. CA or Nevada or Oregon). I will dig more and see if I am missing something as that is possible, but prior efforts to mine information from these links was fruitless for me.

Again, thank you for what you are trying to do. I appreciate it and don't want to come across as a whiner!

I totally get it and couldn't agree more, it's really fractured out there.

I'm at the mercy (as is Matt) with the info we get. Sometimes it's just a club page, sometimes a calendar and sometimes the website isn't maintained. Most clubs are volunteer and as such stuff falls through the cracks or info isn't updated as regularly as you'd expect. In most cases, you have to do a little work by calling or emailing someone on the page and I know to your original point that's not conducive to growing the sport.

 

[moondog]

Look at the "Practiscore" site. I know it's more of a ELR, PRS, NRL, etc. Site but, it has all those type of matches listed. It is an easy site to navigate and see what and where matches are being held. I am seriously contemplating building a dedicated F Open rig and transitioning but,,,,,,I like to shoot.
The lack of those matches close to me are hard to find.

 

[ronsatspokane]

The second, and in my opinion much larger issue, is lack of a central source for match information. I would love to shoot a LOT more and I don't mind traveling 500 miles to do so. But I have found the information about matches is extremely difficult to tap into. If I hear about a match, its usually after its over.

Well stated. This is a big problem. The individuals who run the matches end up being responsible for notification of upcoming matches. I'm on a Dusty's and Randall's email list list for notification of local F Class matches, On Jamey's list for the F Class matches at Deep Creek in Missoula, on Monte's list for the matches at Wenatchee and on Tod's list for F Class matches at Machias but there are a lot of other matches within driving distance that most of us only hear about by word of mouth. I fell off the list of match notifications at Rattlesnake which is only an hour and a half away. I've never received notifications of matches across the border in Oregon and there are a number of those. I'm sure there are matches in Idaho but I have no idea where or when they would be happening.

Ideally some of the match directors burden would be lifted if they could report the match dates and locations to a central repository and the shooters could browse that repository throughout the year to plan their match schedule. Since the NRA seems to have appointed itself the keeper of record and the sole rules authority, they should the ones to assume this task. They already have the vast majority of email addresses of shooters and match directors since most who participate are NRA members. Sadly the only thing they seem to use those email addresses for is solicitation of more funds. Perhaps now that Wayne is no longer using our membership fees to buy new suits and travel to exotic locations some of that money could be used to expand the current repositories to include these functions.

This also applies to High Power, across the course, silhouette and other shooting disciplines.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Some folks at shooting forums are talking as if F-Class shooting is about to kick the bucket. IMO, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just look around, big F-Class matches often fill up in a matter of days, if not hours. Where's the problem? Powders that are commonly-used by F-Class shooters, as well as bullets, primers, brass, and everything else used to reload sells out in minutes to hours as soon as it becomes available. That happens because people are SHOOTING...they are using these components, not sitting at home. So again, where's the problem? Where's this supposed lack of attendance that impacting F-Class nationwide? There may be some programs where attendance is down, but that is not what is happening nationwide. Not even close. Further, it is normal for attendence at F-Class events to wax and wane over time, especially at the local level. Fluctuation in attendance can happen locally for numerous reasons, none of which necessarily signify that F-Class as a whole is going down the tubes. It's also important to remember that attendance at a lot of different events took a big hit due to COVID. In some respects, we are all still struggling to overcome that. Nonetheless, I'm not seeing any signs that F-Class is about dry up and go away.

My point here is this, it seems as though some are trying to address a problem that doesn't even exist. Sure, one can do things locally to stimulate attendance at a given match. In my experience, the best way to do that is to have a good match director that builds a strong program that makes people want to attend matches. That's not any kind of gimmick or new take on F-Class shooting, but it takes hard work over period of time to build up a program.

So why am I mentioning this? I've heard a lot of moaning and gnashing of teeth recently from people when comparing F-Class to PRS. In part, this response was prompted by F-Class John's video at Shot Show where few of the interviewees actually knew anything about F-Class shooting. So what? Is that really the barometer by which F-Class should be evaluated? PRS-style events have become very popular, no doubt about it. But I don't expect everyone involved in the shooting industry to know about F-Class. Neither do I expect all PRS shooters to be familiar with F-Class. Why should they, if they don't participate? Frankly, I don't want F-Class to become what PRS has become, and people need to be very careful if they think that would be a good idea. I am in no way bashing PRS with that statement. They have built up their discipline very well and I totally respect what they are doing. But PRS is not my personal cup of tea. I have no interest in shooting for money. I really have no interest shooting with large crowds for whom prize money is at least one of the important reasons for their attendance. I don't really care about the prize table...I am already able to buy exactly what I want, and my specific personal equipment choices are rarely found on a prize table, anyhow. I don't care whether large numbers of vendors or sponsors show up at matches. Actually, I'd rather they didn't. In other words, I don't care for the commercialization of the shooting sports. Having crazy prize tables and significant amounts of money as prizes comes with a cost. PRS has made it work well for themselves, but that's a road down which I'd rather F-Class didn't venture. In fact, I generally don't even attend matches where money is the major prize. I have no interest. You want me to participate? Offer a good trophy for the winners. Commercial trophies and/or medallions are fine, but custom made trophies, maybe with something specific or notable about the venue, are even better. A trophy is a tangible record of accomplishment. Money is not.

To summarize, I question the basic premise whether F-Class shooting is in a decline. I believe we're seeing numbers of F-Class shooters nationwide that are greater than ever before, which suggests it isn't. Trying to fix something that isn't broken usually ends up badly. Trying to turn F-Class into PRS-style events in terms of the number of participants and the prizes/payouts would really be a huge mistake in my opinion.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Thank you Mr. Ludd for posting what I was thinking!!
watched a friend of mine shoot a PRS match and knew right then it was not my cup of tea.
I hope F Class will be around as long as can still shoot

 

[ronsatspokane]

Some folks at shooting forums are talking as if F-Class shooting is about to kick the bucket. IMO, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just look around, big F-Class matches often fill up in a matter of days, if not hours. Where's the problem? Powders that are commonly-used by F-Class shooters, as well as bullets, primers, brass, and everything else used to reload sells out in minutes to hours as soon as it becomes available. That happens because people are SHOOTING...they are using these components, not sitting at home. So again, where's the problem? Where's this supposed lack of attendance that impacting F-Class nationwide? There may be some programs where attendance is down, but that is not what is happening nationwide. Not even close. Further, it is normal for attendence at F-Class events to wax and wane over time, especially at the local level. Fluctuation in attendance can happen locally for numerous reasons, none of which necessarily signify that F-Class as a whole is going down the tubes. It's also important to remember that attendance at a lot of different events took a big hit due to COVID. In some respects, we are all still struggling to overcome that. Nonetheless, I'm not seeing any signs that F-Class is about dry up and go away.

My point here is this, it seems as though some are trying to address a problem that doesn't even exist. Sure, one can do things locally to stimulate attendance at a given match. In my experience, the best way to do that is to have a good match director that builds a strong program that makes people want to attend matches. That's not any kind of gimmick or new take on F-Class shooting, but it takes hard work over period of time to build up a program.

So why am I mentioning this? I've heard a lot of moaning and gnashing of teeth recently from people when comparing F-Class to PRS. In part, this response was prompted by F-Class John's video at Shot Show where few of the interviewees actually knew anything about F-Class shooting. So what? Is that really the barometer by which F-Class should be evaluated? PRS-style events have become very popular, no doubt about it. But I don't expect everyone involved in the shooting industry to know about F-Class. Neither do I expect all PRS shooters to be familiar with F-Class. Why should they, if they don't participate? Frankly, I don't want F-Class to become what PRS has become, and people need to be very careful if they think that would be a good idea. I am in no way bashing PRS with that statement. They have built up their discipline very well and I totally respect what they are doing. But PRS is not my personal cup of tea. I have no interest in shooting for money. I really have no interest shooting with large crowds for whom prize money is at least one of the important reasons for their attendance. I don't really care about the prize table...I am already able to buy exactly what I want, and my specific personal equipment choices are rarely found on a prize table, anyhow. I don't care whether large numbers of vendors or sponsors show up at matches. Actually, I'd rather they didn't. In other words, I don't care for the commercialization of the shooting sports. Having crazy prize tables and significant amounts of money as prizes comes with a cost. PRS has made it work well for themselves, but that's a road down which I'd rather F-Class didn't venture. In fact, I generally don't even attend matches where money is the major prize. I have no interest. You want me to participate? Offer a good trophy for the winners. Commercial trophies and/or medallions are fine, but custom made trophies, maybe with something specific or notable about the venue, are even better. A trophy is a tangible record of accomplishment. Money is not.

To summarize, I question the basic premise whether F-Class shooting is in a decline. I believe we're seeing numbers of F-Class shooters nationwide that are greater than ever before, which suggests it isn't. Trying to fix something that isn't broken usually ends up badly. Trying to turn F-Class into PRS-style events in terms of the number of participants and the prizes/payouts would really be a huge mistake in my opinion.

You have a point. I recall the Berger Southwest Nationals registration opened 6 am the year before covid. The 400 slots sold out in less than 10 minutes with people from all over the world registering.

 

[Texas Solo]

You have a point. I recall the Berger Southwest Nationals registration opened 6 am the year before covid. The 400 slots sold out in less than 10 minutes with people from all over the world registering.

Ned has 1/2 of a point. True, the big matches sell out fast. But how many of us attend those? Those matches are for the sports Elite. It's the local club matches that get guys started in F Class. The club matches are the grass routes breading ground for future generations. F Class cannot survive only on big matches.

 

[Acyr]

To paraphrase Mark Twain "The reports of F Class death are greatly exaggerated."
The Southwest Nationals Start next week with approx. 350 F Class and sling shooters from 11 different countries shooting side by side at Ben Avery Shooting Range Phoenix, AZ
F Class Nationals were held last fall here with over 200 F Class shooters battling it out.
The sport is healthy and growing.

 

[Texas Solo]

The sport is healthy and growing.

That's my point in the above post.
I don't think the sport IS growing.
New shooters are going straight into PRS, etc.
F class isn't losing that many, but we're certainly not growing.

 

[Acyr]

That's my point in the above post.
I don't think the sport IS growing.
New shooters are going straight into PRS, etc.
F class isn't losing that many, but we're certainly not growing.

It is up to each and every one of us that enjoy our type of shooting whether it is PRS, Bench or F Class to personally get involved and work to recruit more members into our clubs. It certainly won't happen on its own. And it won't happen overnight. If it isn't growing in your area something needs to change. Figure out what and help change it. Get involved.

 

[Ned Ludd]

That's my point in the above post.
I don't think the sport IS growing.
New shooters are going straight into PRS, etc.
F class isn't losing that many, but we're certainly not growing.

You're basing your conclusion on incomplete and/or inaccurate information. F-Class IS growing across the country. Whether it happens to be growing or shrinking at your local range is another story entirely. Even state and regional matches that I used to be able to still sign up for only a week or two out from the match are now completely filled up months in advance. The notion that F-Class is not growing is ludicrous.

 

[Texas Solo]

You're basing your conclusion on incomplete and/or inaccurate information. F-Class IS growing across the country. Whether it happens to be growing or shrinking at your local range is another story entirely. Even state and regional matches that I used to be able to still sign up for only a week or two out from the match are now completely filled up months in advance. The notion that F-Class is not growing is ludicrous.

Fair point Ned. All I can see is what's available to me. 2 years ago, we had 30ish shooters at our club matches.
Now it's 6 - 8.
But again, we have different points. You're referring to " state and regional" matches, where I'm referring to the grass route club matches where tomorrow's shooters come from.

 

[Spoonbill]

It is up to each and every one of us that enjoy our type of shooting whether it is PRS, Bench or F Class to personally get involved and work to recruit more members into our clubs. It certainly won't happen on its own. And it won't happen overnight. If it isn't growing in your area something needs to change. Figure out what and help change it. Get involved.

I am totally on board with what you are saying but at the same time its hard to talk other club members into spending that kind of money on gear and components.

 

[Spoonbill]

Fair point Ned. All I can see is what's available to me. 2 years ago, we had 30ish shooters at our club matches.
Now it's 6 - 8.
But again, we have different points. You're referring to " state and regional" matches, where I'm referring to the grass route club matches where tomorrow's shooters come from.

Participation at my club has shrunk as well.

 

[Codyway]

Look at the "Practiscore" site. I know it's more of a ELR, PRS, NRL, etc. Site but, it has all those type of matches listed. It is an easy site to navigate and see what and where matches are being held. I am seriously contemplating building a dedicated F Open rig and transitioning but,,,,,,I like to shoot.
The lack of those matches close to me are hard to find.

I discovered Practiscore last month due to extreme boredom. Located a PRS match nearby, and gave it a go last weekend with an ar. PRS will not replace F-class in my life, but I had a great time and will do it from time to time.
If I was a match director looking to increase turnout, I would post on Practiscore. A few of the PRS, IPSC, and IDPA guys that use Practiscore may give F-class a try.