Removing the expander ball?

[K0na_stinky]

I just finished reading this article. "Bugholes From Bipod"

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/

In the article the author says: "I have removed the expander ball on the decapping shaft. Trust me, don’t use the expander. In most cases it will just tweak the neck or throw it out of alignment."

I just bought my first "serious" rifle (Savage m12 LRPV) and I want to get more into the case prep side of reloading.

Is removing the expander ball something that lots of people do? I haven't heard anything about it until today. What happens after 6 or 7 firings when the thickness of the neck has increased? Would turning the neck be needed for this?

Thanks.

 

[RonAKA]

There are a few issues to consider. First you can't just remove the expander ball, unless you have a bushing or neck honed to the appropriate size. If you just remove the expander ball from a normal die, the neck is going to be too small and give you excessive neck tension. The second issue is uniformity of the brass thickness. If it is not uniform then the neck ID is not going to be uniform. Lapua brass or neck turned brass is probably OK, but poor brass no.

I don't believe brass in the neck tends to get thicker. If anything it may get thinner, but if it does then you may need a smaller bushing to maintain tension.

There is also the location of the expander ball. If the ball is low in the die and rigid it can pull the neck out of concentricity if it is expanding the neck a significant amount. Some dies have a rubber o-ring above the adjustment nut to give the ball shaft some flexibility to reduce this effect. Forster does this, and goes one step further. They locate the expander ball up close to the neck, so the neck is still guided by the die when it is being expanded. Both measures reduce any neck eccentricity.

This said I have a Forster bushing die that I could use without an expander ball. I still use it (actually an oversized one) to give that final 0.0003" expansion of the neck and make sure the ID is uniform. This coming Spring I plan to try it without the expander ball, and also with a smaller bushing to give more tension to see if there is any difference.

 

[Longtrain]

Forster will hone the neck of their FL sizing die for a nominal fee. I had one of mine honed to .331 w/o using the expander ball.

Tony

 

[fdshuster]

"stinky": Ron AKA beat me to the punch. I read the very imformative article, a lot of good information. He is able to get away with removing the expander because of the custom FL sizing die that has had the neck area honed. Unless you are using this type of a sizer die, or a neck bushing die, as many of us do, you cannot remove the expander button since the standard FL sizing die will radically undersize the case neck, requiring you to then expand the neck to the proper dia. for the usual .002" or .003" of tension. Attempting to seat the bullet using a standard die without the expander will result in a lot of force being required to seat the bullet, you will probably ring the top surface of the bullets ogive from the hard contact with the seater stem, and the neck is likely to at least partially collapse causing an even greater amount of loaded round runout. One of the reasons we use a neck bushing die is because we are only reducing the case neck by .001" to .004" max., depending on the need, so there is no advantage or reason to use the expander. Again, as Ron said the brass neck walls do not normally become thicker from repeated firings, maybe yes, maybe no, depends on a lot of other factors. With some of my 6ppc brass I have measured neck walls that were slightly thicker, but less than .001", and only after 30 to 35 reloadings. With the 6BR's, same # of loadings I've never seen any difference. Good suggestion from Tony if you decide to go that route.

 

[K0na_stinky]

There are a few issues to consider. First you can't just remove the expander ball, unless you have a bushing or neck honed to the appropriate size. If you just remove the expander ball from a normal die, the neck is going to be too small and give you excessive neck tension. The second issue is uniformity of the brass thickness. If it is not uniform then the neck ID is not going to be uniform. Lapua brass or neck turned brass is probably OK, but poor brass no.

I don't believe brass in the neck tends to get thicker. If anything it may get thinner, but if it does then you may need a smaller bushing to maintain tension.

There is also the location of the expander ball. If the ball is low in the die and rigid it can pull the neck out of concentricity if it is expanding the neck a significant amount. Some dies have a rubber o-ring above the adjustment nut to give the ball shaft some flexibility to reduce this effect. Forster does this, and goes one step further. They locate the expander ball up close to the neck, so the neck is still guided by the die when it is being expanded. Both measures reduce any neck eccentricity.

This said I have a Forster bushing die that I could use without an expander ball. I still use it (actually an oversized one) to give that final 0.0003" expansion of the neck and make sure the ID is uniform. This coming Spring I plan to try it without the expander ball, and also with a smaller bushing to give more tension to see if there is any difference.

What does neck “ID” stand for?

I was led to believe during a firing the brass from the case body flows towards the neck.

I have brass I have fired 6 times for my 270. When I size my case with my RCBS full length sizing die it goes in easy but when I pull it back over the expander ball I have to push hard to get it over. A lot harder then when I size new or once fired brass.

I could be wrong on the whole neck getting thicker with firings. I’m new to everything when it comes to this hobby.

But why would my brass that is fired 6 times hard to pull over the expander ball? To me it makes sense that the necks are thicker.

Thanks.

 

[jhord]

+1 to what Ron says. Make sure the expander is "timed" correctly in your die, you can monkey with the height in some dies. Get it up high but not so high that you jam up the works. Also polish the expander, and then polish it some more. Use lube inside the neck, and make sure the neck is free of crud. Then you will have nice straight necks. I have a custom honed Forster for my 6BR and love it. The expander barely touches when you get it all right. Probably not needed but I like having it there I guess. Some of the "off the shelf" dies size the necks down way too far, and then the expander has to drag back thru there... I think that's where problems arise. It doesn't do your headspace length any favors either.

 

[K22]

I had the same question after reading the referenced article. The replies (RonAKA and Longtrain) in these posts are excellent and explain the issue very well, good job fellows.

As for me, removing the expander ball made no sense with my standard RCBS dies.

 

[fdshuster]

"stinky": The case neck is difficult/ hard to pull out of the expander mainly because the neck portion of the standard FL sizing die squeezed the case neck down to a radically small I.D., (inside diameter), Example: If your bullet diameter is .277", the case neck I.D. may be .267". Another factor with multiple firings is work hardening of the brass that could make the case more difficult to pull over the expander. The die maker's must make the die "over-squeeze" the case necks since they don't know what neck thickness the brass you are using has. It's then opened back up to the proper ID with the expander. This overworking of the brass, using a standard die will also result in shorter case life/ neck splits sooner than if only reducing the minimum required by using a honed die or neck bushing die.

 

[K0na_stinky]

"stinky": Ron AKA beat me to the punch. I read the very imformative article, a lot of good information. He is able to get away with removing the expander because of the custom FL sizing die that has had the neck area honed. Unless you are using this type of a sizer die, or a neck bushing die, as many of us do, you cannot remove the expander button since the standard FL sizing die will radically undersize the case neck, requiring you to then expand the neck to the proper dia. for the usual .002" or .003" of tension. Attempting to seat the bullet using a standard die without the expander will result in a lot of force being required to seat the bullet, you will probably ring the top surface of the bullets ogive from the hard contact with the seater stem, and the neck is likely to at least partially collapse causing an even greater amount of loaded round runout. One of the reasons we use a neck bushing die is because we are only reducing the case neck by .001" to .004" max., depending on the need, so there is no advantage or reason to use the expander. Again, as Ron said the brass neck walls do not normally become thicker from repeated firings, maybe yes, maybe no, depends on a lot of other factors. With some of my 6ppc brass I have measured neck walls that were slightly thicker, but less than .001", and only after 30 to 35 reloadings. With the 6BR's, same # of loadings I've never seen any difference. Good suggestion from Tony if you decide to go that route.

I think I have come across what you are talking about. With my Lee reloading Hand Tool kit. The sizer does not have an expanding ball. When the neck on my case got thicker it shaved some copper off the jacket of the bullet. Since then I have bought a press and normal RCBS dies. That’s a 140 gr. Nosler Accu-bond bullet I pulled.

 

[fdshuster]

"stinky": I can also see the ring around the ogive from the seating stem, although on this example, looks like no real damage. And I'll bet that after seating that bullet if you looked closely around the mouth of the case you would see very tiny copper shavings, evidence of the damage done to the bullet.

 

[K0na_stinky]

"stinky": The case neck is difficult/ hard to pull out of the expander mainly because the neck portion of the standard FL sizing die squeezed the case neck down to a radically small I.D., (inside diameter), Example: If your bullet diameter is .277", the case neck I.D. may be .267". Another factor with multiple firings is work hardening of the brass that could make the case more difficult to pull over the expander. The die maker's must make the die "over-squeeze" the case necks since they don't know what neck thickness the brass you are using has. It's then opened back up to the proper ID with the expander. This overworking of the brass, using a standard die will also result in shorter case life/ neck splits sooner than if only reducing the minimum required by using a honed die or neck bushing die.

So with my fired 6 times brass I should measure the neck thickness and compare it to some new brass. If it is the same then maybe my cases should be annealed?

I tried annealing them. I wormed them until I saw a very faint glow in the dark. Then cooled the case body with a wet rag. I didn’t cool the neck though. This was in the summer. Since then I have seen videos of people just dropping them into water. Would that be better? I also saw people heating them red hot. Now I’m not sure how it should be done.

Link to the video of the guy making them red hot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190rC0iTN5M&feature=related

 

[K0na_stinky]

"stinky": I can also see the ring around the ogive from the seating stem, although on this example, looks like no real damage. And I'll bet that after seating that bullet if you looked closely around the mouth of the case you would see very tiny copper shavings, evidence of the damage done to the bullet.

What part of the bullet is the "ogive"?

Sorry I'm new to shooting and reloading.

Thanks a ton for your help.

 

[fdshuster]

Annealing is something to consider, but I can't comment on that, have never annealed a case in my life, and too old to start now. Not for any anti-annealing beliefs, but because of my limited knowledge & ability. If you have a tubing mic or some other accurate way of measuring neck wall thickness that may be a good idea: compare new versus 6 to 7 loadings.

 

[fdshuster]

Ogive is the "curved" section of the bullet, from where it starts to reduce from the .277" 270 cal. full diameter to the tip. Just held a ruler up to your picture and the ring appears 3/4" from the polymer tip/ copper junction.

 

[artbosco]

Is removing the expander ball something that lots of people do?

Yes. If you shoot short range "B"enchrest, the custom made full length bushing dies we use don't come with an expander ball. It would defeat the purpose of a bushing.

Recommendation: Full Length size each and every time you reload. Neck sizing only, allows the case body to continue to grow until you can't feed the case into the chamber. Then you have to overwork it, to get it back to its original dimensions, after it has entered into the hardening process.

 

[K0na_stinky]

Ogive is the "curved" section of the bullet, from where it starts to reduce from the .277" 270 cal. full diameter to the tip. Just held a ruler up to your picture and the ring appears 3/4" from the polymer tip/ copper junction.

Thanks.

I saw the rings and I assumed that they are normal. Is that normal or do they normaly seat with out leaving marks on the bullet?

 

[artbosco]

What part of the bullet is the "ogive"?

This will identify that part of the bullet that is the ogive: http://media.photobucket.com/image/picture%20of%20freebore/Tomate_08/freebore2.jpg

 

[fdshuster]

"stinky": If your bullet seating is "normal"/ neck ID around .002" smaller than bullet diameter, then no, you would not normally get the ring. The exception would be if you were using varmint bullets that have a very thin jacket for maximum expansion, then the chance for the ringing would be greater. Another cause would be if there were a poor fit between the seater stem contact surface with the bullet. As long as it's nothing more than a ring mark without any indentation into the copper jacket it would not be a problem.

 

[fdshuster]

That one picture posted by Outdoorsman probably does more to give a clear description on the cartridge/chamber relation than any other I've ever seen.

 

[jo191145]

Kona

Do yourself a HUGE favor. Erase that annealing video from your mind and computer. The guys an idiot. Glad I don't shoot in Texas.