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Removing the expander ball?

jo191145 said:
Kona

Do yourself a HUGE favor. Erase that annealing video from your mind and computer. The guys an idiot. Glad I don't shoot in Texas.
I didn't plan on trying that. I understand that there are lots of odd ball ideas. Some work, some don't. When I research I try to find out what most people are doing and try that. For annealing I just heat it until it has a tiny glow in the dark. I've read thats what most people do.

*EDIT*

Thanks alot to all the people that are watching out for me and people like me that are just starting out.
 
K0na_stinky said:
What does neck “ID” stand for?

I was led to believe during a firing the brass from the case body flows towards the neck.

I have brass I have fired 6 times for my 270. When I size my case with my RCBS full length sizing die it goes in easy but when I pull it back over the expander ball I have to push hard to get it over. A lot harder then when I size new or once fired brass.

I could be wrong on the whole neck getting thicker with firings. I’m new to everything when it comes to this hobby.

But why would my brass that is fired 6 times hard to pull over the expander ball? To me it makes sense that the necks are thicker.

Thanks.

ID is short for inside diameter. OD is outside diameter.

I guess where the brass goes depends a few things. With full length sizing and a generous chamber I find it flows toward the neck, and the neck gets longer, but not necessarily thicker. That is why sooner or later case length trimming is needed. Also if we keep trimming the length the brass has to be coming from somewhere, so it must be getting thiner. With neck only sizing this effect seems to be significantly reduced.

Over time case interiors unless cleaned get a carbon coating. It is somewhat of a lubricant but not necessarily a good one. I use a bore brush dipped in graphite to clean/lubricate the ID of the neck. This reduces the drag from the expander ball.

I agree with your method of annealing to just a dull glow in the near dark. That is just about right. Glowing red in daylight is way too hot. Dropping the hot cases on a damp rag is good too. You don't have to rapidly cool the neck, but protect the body from getting too hot (over 600 F). If you dump them in a bucked of water that does not harm or good (other than protect the body), but it does make the inside of the case wet, and you have to dry it before you continue loading -- pain in the butt.
 
Brass thicker in the neck? What your probably referring to is a "donut"
As brass flows and grows forward with multiple firings its coming from the shoulders where the brass is thicker. This is called a donut.

A standard non bushing die will make this evident much faster. It sizes completely to the shoulder where the donut is. Now your expander ball must force this thicker brass to the outside upon extraction.
One reason you may feel sizing is more difficult after 6-7 firings.

A bushing die is usually adjusted not to size the entire neck. The donut is not moved and usually theres no expander ball anyway.
Assuming a factory chamber with standard neck clearence using a bushing die you'd probably never see the donut. Its there just on the outside.
The rub is its recommended to size down with two bushings in a normal factory chamber to reduce run out.
I'm one of the few that uses one. I don't measure runout so I'm happy blind :D I've seen factory tubes shoot as good as customs and I've seen stinkers. So far being blind to runout I haven't seen the correlation.

Best way to avoid donuts is to make sure your FL die is bumping the shoulders back just .001"-.002" max.

Annealing
Once again, standard die that works the brass excessively coupled with the large dimensions of a factory neck. Its quite possible your moving that neck up to .020" every firing/sizing cycle.
Brass gets hard fast doing that.

Annealing is a bit of an artform. Not very hard to learn if your willing.
If you have an old lot of scrap brass thats the best place to start.
Every lot of brass will require different times in the heat.
Different cartridges can require large variations in heating times.
Practice in the dark like you are. Intentionally overheat some and compare. When you can dent the case lips with your thumbnail you've gone to far. I count in cadence every cartridge. When I settle on a count they all get the same count.

I use a drill with a deep dish socket. For short/fat cases a little tinfoil wadded up in the bottom adjusts the height in the socket.
I now work in the daylight.
What I've noticed with all sorts of assorted brass is a blue/gray ring forms just outside the fire as the case is spinning. Shortly that ring will speed up and begin to move down the shoulders and body. When it reaches the properly adjusted socket that case is done.
For me that marching ring is the best indicator I've yet discovered.
It can be seen in the dark too.
I've also noticed the color of the flame on the opposite side of the case will change color and flare like sunspots. Burning carbon or zinc I'm not sure. Carbon OK, zinc not so good.
Its not a stable indicater of anything but I never want to go much past that point. Usually the ring and flares coincide nicely.
I never see any red in the daylight. Try for no red in the dark also. Its usually just a touch too well done if you see red.

Brass cannot be tempered by quenching as the video suggested. Its merely a safety factor. A good idea for the beginner but it can be done away with once the confidence level is 100%

After annealing the Imperial dry graphite on a brush Ron mentioned is very highly recommended.
I use it on any die that still has an expander ball in it. If its a FL die I'll brush the necks first. Then use Imperial sizing wax on the outside.
Seems like more work but theres no need to clean out the graphite afterwards which is a timesaver.
 
Stinky:

Your cases may be hard to draw over the expander after 5 or 6 firings because they have become work hardened. Annealing the case at this point would be in order if the case is up to continued reloading, i.e. primer pockets still tight, necks not too thin from shooting, resizing and trimming, etc.

Annealing is not rocket science, but it requires common sense and IMO the use of a temperature indicating substance such as Tempilaq to monitor the heating of the brass. Red glow in dim light is not a scientific measurement of the brass reaching the proper temperature for annealing the necks.

On test cases, a small paint of 750 degree Tempilaq on the inside of the neck and a long paint with 450 degree Tempilaq on the outside of the case from a bit below the shoulder to the base will guide you in determining when proper temperature has reached.

In my setup the neck Tempilaq turns color in about 3 seconds and the 450 indicator doesn't change, showing that the neck has reached annealing temperature and the body hasn't, a good thing. After a few tests, I just use the 750 Tempilaq in the necks, knowing all is fine. Brass is then cleaned in Stainless steel media, resized and loaded.

Some people I have spoken to anneal after each firing, the goal for them is very consistent neck tension. I anneal after three firings.

Hope this helps to explain the VooDoo of annealing.

Tony
 
"stinky": I have some dimensions for your review comparing a factory chamber versus a no-turn neck. You could get the same dimensions from your 270 cases, and you would see first hand how much you are working the brass. 223 Rem., Lake City brass, fired in one of my AR's with a SAAMI spec chamber. As fired case neck dia. = .254", indicates a chamber neck dia. of .255", allowing for the typical .001" springback. Removed the expander from a Redding FL sizer and sized case neck dia. is .241". Expander back in and ran it thru the sizer again for a neck dia. of .245". Loaded round neck dia. .247". Subtract the "little" number (.241"), from the "big" one (.255") and you can see the brass is being worked .014", or .007" per side. I usually get 12 to 14 reloads before the splits appear in the case necks. 6BRX, Lapua brass, fired in a .270" no turn neck chamber. As fired case neck dia. .269". Using a .267" bushing, for a loaded round neck dia. of .268". Subtract the "little" from the "big" and you can see the brass is being worked .003", or .0015" per side. Not sure about the new BRX, but my 6BR cases are good for 35+ loadings. If you were to use a bushing die for a factory chamber you would be able to prevent the oversizing on the low end, but are locked into the generous chamber neck dia. on the big end. As mentioned, with a bushing die you would have the advantage of not using the expander.. A long, rambling message I know: still awake? ;)
 
fdshuster said:
"stinky": I have some dimensions for your review comparing a factory chamber versus a no-turn neck. You could get the same dimensions from your 270 cases, and you would see first hand how much you are working the brass. 223 Rem., Lake City brass, fired in one of my AR's with a SAAMI spec chamber. As fired case neck dia. = .254", indicates a chamber neck dia. of .255", allowing for the typical .001" springback. Removed the expander from a Redding FL sizer and sized case neck dia. is .241". Expander back in and ran it thru the sizer again for a neck dia. of .245". Loaded round neck dia. .247". Subtract the "little" number (.241"), from the "big" one (.255") and you can see the brass is being worked .014", or .007" per side. I usually get 12 to 14 reloads before the splits appear in the case necks. 6BRX, Lapua brass, fired in a .270" no turn neck chamber. As fired case neck dia. .269". Using a .267" bushing, for a loaded round neck dia. of .268". Subtract the "little" from the "big" and you can see the brass is being worked .003", or .0015" per side. Not sure about the new BRX, but my 6BR cases are good for 35+ loadings. If you were to use a bushing die for a factory chamber you would be able to prevent the oversizing on the low end, but are locked into the generous chamber neck dia. on the big end. As mentioned, with a bushing die you would have the advantage of not using the expander.. A long, rambling message I know: still awake? ;)
Next time I reload some 270 bullets I will check. But it might be a bit. My scope and mounts and all my 204 cleaning things came in today. So I think ill be playing that my 204 ruger for a while now. ;D
 
K0na_stinky said:
jo191145 said:
Best way to avoid donuts is to make sure your FL die is bumping the shoulders back just .001"-.002" max.

How do I bump the shoulder? I'm not sure what that means.

There are gauges you can buy which measure the distance from the cartridge base to a "datum" point on the shoulder. Hornady calls them headspace gauges, but they are not really a true go, no-go headspace gauge.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Headspace-Gauge-Kits/

What you would do is take a measurement of your fired case, and then by trial and error adjust your press and/or die to put the case further and further into the die. At some point the FL die will contact the shoulder face, and start to bump it back toward the cartridge head. This is called bumping the shoulder. The objective is to limit this bump to the bare minimum as was suggested. If you just follow normal procedure and run the shell holder up hard against the die, you likely will bump the shoulder back much more than 0.001".

Another trick is to just do a partial FL size, and stop well short of bumping the shoulder at all. Potentially just size until 2/3 or even 1/2 of the neck is sized. You can see that visually. Use that setting until the bolt starts to get a little tight closing, and then either do a 0.001" bump or full resize.
 
RonAKA said:
There are gauges you can buy which measure the distance from the cartridge base to a "datum" point on the shoulder. Hornady calls them headspace gauges, but they are not really a true go, no-go headspace gauge.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Headspace-Gauge-Kits/

What you would do is take a measurement of your fired case, and then by trial and error adjust your press and/or die to put the case further and further into the die. At some point the FL die will contact the shoulder face, and start to bump it back toward the cartridge head. This is called bumping the shoulder. The objective is to limit this bump to the bare minimum as was suggested. If you just follow normal procedure and run the shell holder up hard against the die, you likely will bump the shoulder back much more than 0.001".

Another trick is to just do a partial FL size, and stop well short of bumping the shoulder at all. Potentially just size until 2/3 or even 1/2 of the neck is sized. You can see that visually. Use that setting until the bolt starts to get a little tight closing, and then either do a 0.001" bump or full resize.
So with my shell holder contacting my die I am bumping the shoulder too much? And I want to back out the sizing die just a tiny bit to make the shoulder further from the case head to fit my chamber? Once I find where the shoulder is tight against the chamber and the bolt is getting tight to close. I want to bump the shoulder back 0.001”?
 
K0na_stinky said:
So with my shell holder contacting my die I am bumping the shoulder too much? And I want to back out the sizing die just a tiny bit to make the shoulder further from the case head to fit my chamber?

Yes, this is exactly it. The problem is that there are tolerances allowed for chambers and also for cartridges. The barrel maker wants to be sure the largest allowed cartridge will still fit the chamber, so they tend to make them at the large end of the scale. The cartridge or die manufacturer does not want anyone to complain because their cartridges don't fit, so they go to the small end of the scale. As a result the tolerances stack and you typically have the die pushing the shoulder back way more than is necessary.

Once I find where the shoulder is tight against the chamber and the bolt is getting tight to close. I want to bump the shoulder back 0.001”?

That may be one way to adjust it based on trial and error. Another (and I have not tried it), may be to take the expander ball and decapping pin out of the die. Measure your fired case length, and then start sizing it more and more, checking length each time. When you get close to the shoulder hopefully you will be seeing no change in length until you actually bump the shoulder. Stop of course when it moves 0.001-0.002". The reason for taking the expander out, is that it may stretch the overall case as it is withdrawn. On the other hand sizing the neck down may squash the neck back too. Hopefully as you get close to the shoulder the force will be reduced enough that it stops until you hit the shoulder.
 
Stinky:

You really need the tools to measure "bumping the shoulders" back. Again, it is difficult if not impossible to gauge the amount you're setting back the shoulder without an accurate measuring device.

If you touch your die to the shell holder, how much is that moving the shoulder back? Turn the die down a 1/4 turn more, "over caming" the press, how much then?

With the right tools, you'll make better, safer and more accurate handloads.

Ron was right in recommending the Hornady measuring tools, I use them in all my loading, no guessing, just results.

Tony
 

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