Reloading Scale That Works

[wooger]

It would be interesting to do a head to head test of an tuned beam scale vs a hi res digital and see what the es and sd results are.

 

[bozo699]

I may be wrong, but it has been explained to me that a balance deflecting on a single grain is *not* the same as weighing a single grain. In other words, just because a balance moves on a single grain does not mean it has single grain resolution. Like I said though, I may have misunderstood what was being explained to me.

You are correct, of course. I just wanted a relative point of monetary insanity. $19 buys you 99.9% of the accuracy we need. Not repeatable, not certified weight. Just sensitivity. One single kernel sensitivity cost $19. The other $975 to get that little bit more.

Actually only $881

 

[itchyTF]

I can be pretty anal about precision and accuracy myself. Assume the playing field is leveled by only considering scales with force restoration load cells. The OP's first post states a kernel of H4350 weighs .025gr, which is about the resolution of the TP-153. Since I can't answer this, I wonder what a kernel or two would have on downrange results? I suppose it would be related to case capacity, but I'm just trying to get a handle on this. Is this increase in resolution/accuracy touching on or well into the diminishing returns category?

Don't get me wrong. If it gives you more confidence and can afford it, by all means go for the GD503 class scale. But for those that would consider it a real financial stretch how much would be lost going with the TP-153 class scale? If not that much, the difference is about the cost of a new barrel.

I'm aware of the "cry once" philosophy but I haven't heard of anyone commenting on how long is acceptable!! I would embarrass myself and everyone around me with the amount of crying I'd be doing.

 

[GermanS1]

AJ, this has been a very interesting discussion and it certainly has me thinking. Over lunch today after our match, it was one of the hot topics.

Perhaps this has been described and I missed it, but how do you trickle up on this scale with the pan inside the glass enclosure? Also, can you estimate how long it takes to weigh out 50 charges (or any other reasonable number)? Finally, what is your acceptance standard? In other words, if your target weight is 45.00 grains, what range around that will you accept?

Thanks, and I really appreciate what you've done to bring this scale and the topic generally, to our attention.

 

[Forum Boss]

German,

Watch the first video in the Bulletin story:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/sartorius-gd503-analytical-scale-measures-to-0005-of-grain/

The first video shows a Dandy Products Omega power trickler used with the Satorius Scale. All that needs to be inserted is the thin neck of the trickler so the sliding glass only has to be opened slightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfl9C0-5zYw&feature=player_embedded

 

[AJ]

Boyd I am glad my little rant brought a smile to your face. I should of known you would be hanging out on this forum. It's been a while since we talked I'm AJ @ Bighorn Arms if you didn't already figure that out. And I am liking this new little instrument it gives me a weight within a second and then doesn't change it's mind in the next second (unlike my wife). I know that was uncalled for. I have started just throwing a load that is about .3 grains short on my uniflow and trickling up. I would throw it closer but H4350 doesn't meter very well. It takes about 1 minute to charge and seat a bullet per round. I am only doing this on my hunting / tactical rifle that I am shooting out to 1000 yards or so. I can understand a miss that was caused by a bad wind call but when one drops low or goes high it allways has me wondering what just happened. At the last match the few misses I had were all wind so I am happy so far. As far as my little prairie dog rifle goes the H335 I am using seems to meter just fine in my Dillon and I get consistent hits out to 450 yards and with the thousands of rounds I shoot through it each year I am not sure any accuracy gain would be worth the time at the reloading bench.

 

[BoydAllen]

AJ,
It is good to hear from you. If it was in the budget, I would have one of those scales, as it is, like you, I am able to find powders to use for my varmint rifles that I can throw well enough for good "minute of squirrel" accuracy, and since all of my range shooting is with a 6PPC at quite a bit less than prone sling shooter's distances, I find that, with a lot of practice, I have been able to throw 133 well enough for my purposes. As I told you before, I think that your action would do well against any of those that are used in short range benchrest (or long range for that matter) and will continue to encourage you to build a rifle in 6PPC to demonstrate that. Your work looks to be first rate by any standard.
Boyd

 

[Jay Christopherson]

As an FYI update to the earlier post I made on page one about external power options, since I have been communicating with Sartorius regarding options:

Both options I posted *will* work. The voltage range for the scale is 10VDC - 20VDC, so anything in that range will work as long as it provides for sufficient current (200mA). Three things to keep in mind though:

- check the polarity of the plug on the device you plan to use; Sartorius uses outside(+), inside(-). A quick check with a multimeter will confirm the polarity of your device for you. Using the wrong polarity could potentially fry the board... trust me, after turning a wireless router into a brick, I always check now. Some devices can handle either/or, but better safe than sorry.

- your external power source needs to provide sufficient input current; the little black battery pack I posted from securitycamera2000 that runs for $43 provides for 1000mA of input current. At 200mA (max) draw, a 4800maH battery will provide for a lot of work at the range.

- using any accessories that are NOT provided by the manufacturer will void the warranty. They do sell an external battery back for something like $250. It's up to you to decide your level of acceptable risk.

 

[bozo699]

As an FYI update to the earlier post I made on page one about external power options, since I have been communicating with Sartorius regarding options:

Both options I posted *will* work. The voltage range for the scale is 10VDC - 20VDC, so anything in that range will work as long as it provides for sufficient current (200mA). Three things to keep in mind though:

- check the polarity of the plug on the device you plan to use; Sartorius uses outside(+), inside(-). A quick check with a multimeter will confirm the polarity of your device for you. Using the wrong polarity could potentially fry the board... trust me, after turning a wireless router into a brick, I always check now. Some devices can handle either/or, but better safe than sorry.

- your external power source needs to provide sufficient input current; the little black battery pack I posted from securitycamera2000 that runs for $43 provides for 1000mA of input current. At 200mA (max) draw, a 4800maH battery will provide for a lot of work at the range.

- using any accessories that are NOT provided by the manufacturer will void the warranty. They do sell an external battery back for something like $250. It's up to you to decide your level of acceptable risk.

Jay,
That is a very very good suggestion and warning as almost all dc electronic equipment NEED'S TO HAVE THE CORRECT POLARITY!! or it WILL fry the board, motors with brushes don't care,..diodes do! It's good to know about the Battery, thanks Jay.
Wayne.

 

[memilanuk]

Perhaps this has been described and I missed it, but how do you trickle up on this scale with the pan inside the glass enclosure? Also, can you estimate how long it takes to weigh out 50 charges (or any other reasonable number)? Finally, what is your acceptance standard? In other words, if your target weight is 45.00 grains, what range around that will you accept?

German,

I've been meaning to get one of those Omega tricklers, but in the mean time I've been using a Vibrashine I bought several years ago for my AccuLab VIC-123. The slight vibration of the Vibrashine drove the Acculab absolutely nuts, so that idea got canned early on. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to bother the GD-503 at all. The Vibrashine is kind of finicky, though. I don't know how the 'flow' is adjusted in an Omega, but on the Vibrashine you rotate the tube to choke the flow of kernels - and there is a very fine line between 'too many', 'just right' and 'too few / too far apart) in the tube, and it doesn't always stay set. Plus I have it rigged up on a series of spacers (plywood) - it really needs a more permanent base.

When I'm not using the Vibrashine, I just use the 'old fashioned' method - a separate pan from another scale filled w/ powder, and a plastic teaspoon. With my Chargemaster set to dispense 0.1gn low from my desired target weight, I dump the pan from the chargemaster in the GD-503, and put it back. While it finds zero again and dispenses the next charge, I scrape up the few kernels required w/ my spoon and put them in the pan in the GD-503. Most of my 'precision' weighing lately has been with Viht N-150, and I know Varget wasn't quite as weird this way but it has several distinct kernel sizes between 0.01 and 0.04 gn each. I normally 'accept' a range of +/- 0.02 for my target weight, simply to speed things up and keep things moving. Trying to get within +/- 0.005gn on every single charge (for the numbers I load up for a big match) would probably cause me to go fall on my cleaning rod!

Starting with primed cases in a tray, it takes me... a little over an hour (maybe 65 minutes) to do fifty rounds. Sometimes I'm waiting on the Chargemaster as it trickles up, sometimes it gets right on it and is done super fast. Sometimes the charge I put in the pan of the GD-503 is right on the money, sometimes I overshoot my target (see the part above about variable kernel weight).

HTH,

Monte

 

[in2deep]

The Omega trickler is different than the Vibrashine unit and is adjustable for dispenser speed using separate buttons for high and low speeds plus the slow speed can be tweaked with the sliding tuner weight to slowly drop single kernels of powder. My Omega trickler doesn't upset the Acculab scale surprisingly and the rubber feet seem to eliminate vibration.

 

[memilanuk]

The Vibrashine has rubber feet as well... it'll be interesting to put the two alongside (finally broke down and just ordered an Omega) and see how they compare.

I've been meaning to try throwing from my Harrell's measure set a fuzz low, then trickle up on the GD-503. Not sure if it'd be faster or not - the bulk dispensing probably would be, but I think I'd be trickling up further and more often as the +/- of the Harrell's is not as good as the Chargemaster. Assuming *that* works... next step would be to rig the Chargemaster to throw into a tube that empties out into the pan actually on the scale (without spilling!) and then trickle right into with the Omega. Given how stick powders sometimes hang up, that might be... interesting to set up without jostling the scale.

 

[in2deep]

I think somebody (Boyd?) recently mentioned a convoluted set-up where he throws into the pan on the scale without spilling too much powder but i couldn't get a visual. Once you get used to the Omega then throwing light and trickling up will become really fast using the hi speed button to get close then tapping in a couple kernels to top-off the load. You won't want to deal with the green machine with this method just throw a half grain light and trickle up. Actually when using a beam it works better to throw light enough to where the beam doesn't move and then hit the hi speed trickle button and the beam raises nice and steady instead of bottoming and then resettling and raising repeatedly and controlling beam bounce saves alot of time and the power trickler helps alot there.

If your a beam scale trickler his doo-hickey prism device that lets you see the scale pointer without bending over or putting the scale up on a shelf is also worth it's weight in gold and placing a large magnifying glass in front of the scales pointer makes a big difference also as far as accuracy and speed goes and this combo makes using a beam much more user friendly.

 

[BoydAllen]

Actually, I figured out how to dump from the measure directly into the pan, on the scale, without any powder being spilled. and with the scale set up with a video camera looking at the balance marks, and the image on my monitor, I can do a weighed charge in a little over 15 seconds.

 

[memilanuk]

Actually, I figured out how to dump from the measure directly into the pan, on the scale, without any powder being spilled.

Mind sharing?

 

[BoydAllen]

I will try to set up and shoot a low resolution video in the next couple of days. In the mean time... I slowed the powder down by clamping a plastic powder funnel to the bottom of the drop tube at as much of an angle as I could, and have it work. This directed the powder to a strip of foam tape (flesh colored, designed for bandaging) on the inside of the scale pan, in the impact area. I applied the tape to the pan after the scale was zeroed, and then weighed the tape, and added that amount to the scale's charge settings. The only other detail was rubbing a little HBN on the tape and its edges so that the rifle powder would not stick.
With the trickler overhanging the pan, all I had to do was operate the measure, trickle, dump the charge in a funnel and return the pan to the scale. By leaving the pan on the scale, about 5 seconds per charge is saved. Basically I just wanted to see if I could make it work.

 

[Flouncer]

It would be interesting to do a head to head test of an tuned beam scale vs a hi res digital and see what the es and sd results are.

Anyone who has dropped +/- $800/$900 on a digital scale care to throw $20 more and test a Lee Single beam balance ?

I am broke but not unappreciative and will cheer for you

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I have two tuned beam scales, although one of them is borked for some reason. I plan to put it to the test against this. Typically, I have not gotten the results I expected using it, but that could be (likely is) due to my method more than anything else. Right now, I get about about the same results using a Vic-123/GemPro 500 vs. tuned scale when it comes to E.S. and S.D.

So, by Friday I should have a GD503, an AY123 (VIC-123), a GemPro 500 (assuming it hasn't sold), and a tuned beam scale in house. I'm mulling over a GD503 vs. <insert_scale_here> series in my head, but we'll see how time/inclination work out. I have patience for a lot things, but video taping and editing is not one of them.

It would be interesting to do a head to head test of an tuned beam scale vs a hi res digital and see what the es and sd results are.

Anyone who has dropped +/- $800/$900 on a digital scale care to throw $20 more and test a Lee Single beam balance ?

I am broke but not unappreciative and will cheer for you

 

[GermanS1]

Monte (and everyone else) thanks for the replies and information. I'm curious about this and I think I may have a chance to use one of these scales soon. I'd like to compare ammo loaded on it to as close as I can get it with ammo loaded my current way. I throw from a measure into the pan, then trickle up on my Ohaus Navigator (~2003 model). The Navigator's second decimal digit is 0 or 5 and I ignore it. So, if my goal is 42.2 gr, I will accept 42.20 or 42.25 equally. This takes about 30 seconds per round, so 25 minutes or so for 50 rounds.

I normally have SD in the low single digit range for 20 shots of .308 and acceptable accuracy, but if there's an improvement to be found, I'm interested.

If I get the chance to do the experiment I have in mind, I'll write something up.

 

[memilanuk]

Jay,

FWIW, I have one of Scott Parker's super-tuned RCBS 10-10 scales, as well as a Redding #2. Years ago, I got a 10-10 when my first Pact dispenser died because everyone told me it was the best available, blah blah blah. Hated it, or more specifically, mine would 'stick' and I didn't like the way the adjustments work (personal preference) - so I sold it and got the #2. 1.5-2yrs ago, when I was in the midst of pulling out what hair I have left due to my Acculab VIC-123 acting up, I talked to Scott and sent him a brandy new RCBS 10-10 (dang things had gone up in price noticeably!). I would have rather sent him a #2, but he said even though he had one himself, he didn't work on them for others as he couldn't guarantee the results like he could the 10-10.

I'd weighed a bunch of charges (50) across the 10-10 before I sent it out, and the #2 as well, and cross checked them on the VIC-123 (non-varying weights it did fine with - but trickling just drove mine batty), and then again when the 10-10 got back. I don't think I have the numbers handy any more... but the interesting bit (to me) was that while the 10-10 was noticeably better after being worked over... the #2 was still at least as good.

German,

This probably makes not a whole lot of sense, but my observation thus far is that the single-kernel weighing hasn't been the secret handshake to consistent single digit ES thus far - or else I'm just doing it wrong Lower, yes. But single-digit seems to take something else - more of a load tuning thing than just the scale. I've had some loads shoot nearly single digit with thrown charges, and several that would come close with charges dispensed by the Chargemaster. Now for the weird part - about February last year, I went down to Douglas Ridge outside Portland to do some long-range load testing as FCNC was coming up in March in Sacramento. I took a few loads along to test different things such as the effect of pointing, meplat uniforming, etc. Among the loads were ones that were identical except one batch was straight off the Chargemaster, and one was weighed out on the GD-503. It was raining like crazy, so I stopped plotting after about five shots - nothing short of a china marker/grease pencil on a plastic sheet was going to work in those conditions. Turned out that the guy pulling targets was numbering the pasters as he put them on, so when he came back with the repair centers we were able to back plot the shots. The difference wasn't night and day, but there *was* a noticeable difference in vertical @ 1k between the two - though I never could see much appreciable difference over the chronograph.

YMMV,

Monte