Reloading Scale That Works

[bozo699]

I guess Gary at balances.com decided to ship me a Sartorius AY123 (same as Denver MXX-123) to do a comparison with, vs the GD503 I ordered and if it hasn't sold, I'll include my GemPro 500.

If there's interest, I can take some video of it during a loading session. I'm really anxious to see how it does with regards to drift. As it stands now, I re-tare my GemPro every 5 rounds or so, just to be 100% sure it hasn't drifted. I've caught it a few times, where I didn't do that, and it had drifted as much as .15 grains. As long as I re-tare it often, it seems to stay pretty accurate, but it's a pain to do that and I still get the random flyer (in terms of velocity).

It'll also be nice to be able to trickle powder (I have the same Omega trickler that AJ does) without having to trickle/pause - trickle/pause - (curse/empty) - trickle/pause, like I do now. This new scale should be nearly instantaneous with updated readings.

Jay,
I would be interested in your findings as well and how the Omega works with the scale as well, I have been seriously thinking of getting one of those as well.
Wayne.

 

[Preacher]

I've read enough about it, that I have one on the way..
Between AJ's write up and a long conversation with Gary at www.balances.com this is what I've been looking for, for a long time now, so I bit the bullet, and will forego a new BAT action for a while 'O)

 

[Will]

All this neat gizmo stuff may be great but ... Can YOU really shoot the difference a minute charge change will make ? How much is a 0.005 grain weight difference going to make at 1,000 yds ? For the cost of that device I could buy another Harrells and a keg or 2 of powder.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

In my opinion, it's not so much about the ability to load to .005 resolution. If you watch the video AJ did, you'll notice that the Chargemaster scale shows a weight of more than .1 difference than the GD503. .1grain is a LOT of difference and that's just on one charge! How many times have you weighed a charge, gone to pick it up, only to have the charge weight change at the last second? At that point, which is the correct weight? The weight you thought you had measured to or the weight that the scale just decided to change to? Was it the air pressure of your hand moving that caused it to change? If you re-weigh it, does it come back at the same weight or a different one?

I'm not attacking your opinion here, just throwing out the things that go through my mind during loading operations. I kind of think it's funny that people talk about how the match game is won in the reloading room, balk at spending $900 on a scale that is clearly a highly precise tool, yet spend thousands on optics, actions, barrels, and other components that won't necessarily affect your accuracy like a poorly weighed powder charge. Now, if your current process involves a beam scale (tuned or otherwise) or some other method that is producing results for you, then I'm not advocating a solution to a problem you don't have. But if random vertical flyers or E.S.'s that are huge because of one or two shots, prey on your OCD mind (like they do mine) , then this is just one more weapon in your arsenal.

For me, it's about repeatability. With any of the strain gauge scales that I have used to this point (VIC123, GemPro, PACT), you are never 100% certain that you are hitting your weight. You rarely get the exact same reading on multiple weighings. You are tare'ing constantly to ensure that you have not strayed from zero. And, in the end, when you are running a string through a chronograph, and you get that one or two flyer's that turn a low teens E.S. into a 40's E.S.- was that just random chance, the scale, or what? Do you exclude those results because you are not 100% sure the charge was correct? Or do you go back to the drawing board on your process or your load workup? I can fix some of those things by modifying my process, but at that point it becomes a matter of how much time I want to spend in the reloading room dealing with my scale. If I can spend $900 to save me what will eventually become hours in the reloading room, I'm pretty happy.

So, like I said- weighing down to the .005" gr is not important to me. I doubt I'll care much past .1 or .01 of resolution, even though it can do more than that. I care about the fact that I can pretty much eliminate the scale and my ability to weigh out charges reliably as a variable when I encounter flyers at the range.

All this neat gizmo stuff may be great but ... Can YOU really shoot the difference a minute charge change will make ? How much is a 0.005 grain weight difference going to make at 1,000 yds ? For the cost of that device I could buy another Harrells and a keg or 2 of powder.

 

[bozo699]

Jay,
As well put and professionally written response as I have ever read on this forum I believe , it would tax Boyd Allen to write a better one and I am often in awe at his responses and have his total respect for it. That put it all in prospective without belittling anyone or boasting, and you have my respect and appreciation as well for it. Everyone on this forum should read it, thanks again for a wonderfully written post.
Sincerely Wayne A Bezona.

 

[lurcher]

I too am fussy about weighing but my budget cannot stretch to a sartorious. I work in a laboratory and I routinely use mettler and sartorious fine balances for weighing small quantities of chemicals. At home I have a Scott Parker tuned redding beam balance. By taking stuff to work and measuring them on the scales I can see that Scott's scale is accurate to at least 0.05 grain. I have a web cam hooked up to the scales and I can see it shift if I add single granules of log powder. I know that my chargemaster at best is +/- 0.1.

If I go to quick load and add 0.1 grains of powder to the loads I am currently working with (7-08 and 7 saum). I see that for the 7-08 adding 0.1 grains of powder makes 6FPS difference and for the saum 5FPS. If I use a .222 as example it is up to 14FPS.

My question is... If every charge you load is +/- 0.1 and you have to live with that, and your seating depths are consistent. What is the order of importance of other factors such as case volume, neck tension, consistency of primer seating etc etc. Is it possible (assuming your cartridge takes say 30 grains of powder minimum) to consistently hold say sub 15FPS ES values if your weights vary +/- 0.1?

I am thinking that at least for larger calibers beyond a certain point of weight accuracy you have reached the point of diminishing returns because controlling the other factors becomes more of an issue?

 

[Laurie]

My question is... If every charge you load is +/- 0.1 and you have to live with that, and your seating depths are consistent. What is the order of importance of other factors such as case volume, neck tension, consistency of primer seating etc etc. Is it possible (assuming your cartridge takes say 30 grains of powder minimum) to consistently hold say sub 15FPS ES values if your weights vary +/- 0.1? [lurcher]

I bought an Acculab VIC 123 to get the MV ES values in .223R / 90gn down to these levels with 24-25gn charge weights. Range testing / chronographing showed 0.1gn = 10 fps MV change so +/- 0.1gn was going to build in 20 fps ES + whatever other factors are present producing 30 fps or thereabouts spreads, that I considered too much.

Yes, the Acculab is finicky! I don't tare the pan or add powder to the charge on the scales, but add the pan weight to the desired charge weight and write that on a sheet of paper in large letters putting it on the bench alongside the scales. In use, I zero the scale with my small finger on each and every weighing immediately before placing the pan + charge on the platen. If I change the charge, I do it off the scales and have found an average kernel weight of 0.02gn is a good guide as to what to add / remove before reweighing.

Using scale check weights regularly throughout a session and this method of operating the scales I find I am getting consistent results even over a long session. I also find that I will get the same weight half a dozen times in a row for the pan + charge using the zero while putting them on the platen method. I also get MV ES values in the low to mid teens, occasionally high single figures for a string of 10 shots despite the .222 / .223 Rem 'family' having a reputation for producing large spreads.

If loading for .308 Win sized or larger cartridges, I'll also use the Acculab for long-range loads, but all my experience says +/- 0.1gn is usually good enough if the rifle likes the load, especially with some easily ignited powders such as Viht N150. I expect single figure ES values in .308W with 155 to 175 / N150 combinations using RCBS 10-10 scales and a bit of care.

Yes I would like a less variable, more user friendly set of electronic scales, but not at 900 USD that will in practice translate to 900 pounds sterling in the UK. I can buy a lot of trigger time in real shooting conditions for that money and that will do a lot more for my results.

 

[BoydAllen]

Wayne,
I would send you a bill for having to replace all my hats with a size larger....if I wore hats. A friend, who just finished doing weighed charges for an enormous number of .17 AI Hornets (using a tuned up balance) made a check weight that was easy to pick up, and weighed exactly what his charge did. That way he could check against a standard, without changing the setting of the scale. One of the things that I had not thought of, is how much more critical a given amount of load weight variance is, as a percentage of total charge, in a very small case. The other thing that was super critical was neck tension. He made a series of experimental expander mandrels, and finally arrived at the neck tension that he wanted. It made a major difference in accuracy with his model 38 Cooper (which is available from the factory in that caliber).
Boyd

 

[Laurie]

One of the things that I had not thought of, is how much more critical a given amount of load weight variance is, as a percentage of total charge, in a very small case.

Boyd,

I can sympathise with your friend's challenge with this cartridge and must applaud his devotion. Long before I bought the Acculab scales I had a play with the common or garden .22 Hornet and soon considered it the nightmare cartridge, three-figure MV ESs not uncommon as well as the dreaded 4+1 group where the '1' was often 1-1.5" away from the '4'. It was an old Stevens single-lug rifle, but even so any would-be romantic attachment to this historic cartridge was soon dulled and this particular 'marriage' soon ended in divorce. Anybody taking on the .17 variant has to be seriously dedicated, or to use what we Brits regard as a standard (cliched?) phrase for you North Americans, some kind of nut (no offence intended)!

 

[BoydAllen]

I am sure that none would be taken. Any time someone starts waxing poetic about a .22 caliber smaller than a .222, I refer them to the low velocity loads in my old Hornady manual. They work just fine, and are typically much more accurate than a Hornet.

 

[itchyTF]

Curious -
Seems most reloaders start with scales that are good to +/-.1gr. Then there seemed to be a migration to the milligram (.020gr) level of accuracy. There are some that had problems with the strain gauge load cell types (me being one of them). Although it may be too early for any type of conclusion but in this thread there seems to be another migration to the force restoration technology but at a higher level of accuracy and cost. What happened to the intermediate step of force restoration at the milligram level? Not cheap but a good chunk less than the GD503!

 

[fguffey]

I never know if the person promoting the product is the seller or user, one very annoying seller is/was a polarizing influence, so I ask him if he solicited other members on forums to aid in his effort to promote his products, and he ask me "Which one/forum"?

F. Guffey

 

[Flouncer]

This new scale can actually weigh an individual kernel of H4350, it weighs right at .025 per kernel.

Not trying to be smug but just offering a baseline. My $19 Lee Safety Balance will deflect with a single grain (edit: kernel) of H4831.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I may be wrong, but it has been explained to me that a balance deflecting on a single grain is *not* the same as weighing a single grain. In other words, just because a balance moves on a single grain does not mean it has single grain resolution. Like I said though, I may have misunderstood what was being explained to me.

This new scale can actually weigh an individual kernel of H4350, it weighs right at .025 per kernel.

Not trying to be smug but just offering a baseline. My $19 Lee Safety Balance will deflect with a single grain of H4831.

 

[AJ]

You guys have me thinking now. I have been a precision machinist for over 30 years and maybe I like too much precision. I mean really do I need a $900. scale that is super accurate and quick. And do I really need a sub 1/4 MOA prairie dog rifle or a sub 1/2 MOA hunting rifle? Dang of the 1/2 dozen elk I have taken I have never shot one over 100 yards. For less than what I spent to rebarrel my elk rifle I could buy that $399. Remmy with scope that's on sale over at Sportsman's as long as I hit that pie plate at 100 I should be good. Heck I'm starting to see how much accuracy I really need and how much money I have really been wasting. Hmm!!! I might need to sell 3 safes full of guns that are just too accurate and are just too nice..

 

[BoydAllen]

 

[bozo699]

Double

 

[bozo699]

You guys have me thinking now. I have been a precision machinist for over 30 years and maybe I like too much precision. I mean really do I need a $900. scale that is super accurate and quick. And do I really need a sub 1/4 MOA prairie dog rifle or a sub 1/2 MOA hunting rifle? Dang of the 1/2 dozen elk I have taken I have never shot one over 100 yards. For less than what I spent to rebarrel my elk rifle I could buy that $399. Remmy with scope that's on sale over at Sportsman's as long as I hit that pie plate at 100 I should be good. Heck I'm starting to see how much accuracy I really need and how much money I have really been wasting. Hmm!!! I might need to sell 3 safes full of guns that are just too accurate and are just too nice..

I have thought about AJ's post for about a 1/2 hour or so now. I am very glad I never got into drugs because I have a very addictive personality, every thing I have ever done my whole life I have striven for perfection, nothing is ever quite good enough, my dad is that's close enough for the girls I go with type guy's. He drives me nuts with a 1/4" is close enough and I drive him nuts with .010 isn't close enough, which one of us is right??.......well actually if he can get by satisfactory with a 1/4" with his project in his world and I need .010 to be satisfied in my world and they both work for our needs, well.................
I don't think anyone is trying to pull your cheap little pot metal beam scale away from you, as a matter of a fact if the little lee scoops work for you and pie plate accuracy is all your after use them I am quite sure after I owned and operated the GD503 I would be questioning .001 because that's just my way. I say if $900 makes you happy and you can afford it,...go for it, if $19 is all you can afford or it is what makes you happy, then go for it. My great uncle killed at least one elk a year every since he got out of the service when WWII ended until his death a couple of years ago and his way of measuring powder charges for his trusty 06 was scoop the case in a bucket of 4831 and scrape the excess off the neck with his finger and load the bullet, as they say what ever floats your boat man
Wayne.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

My great uncle killed at least one elk a year every since he got out of the service when WWII ended until his death a couple of years ago and his way of measuring powder charges for his trusty 06 was scoop the case in a bucket of 4831 and scrape the excess off the neck with his finger and load the bullet, as they say what ever floats your boat man
Wayne.

That is funny! I use Varget in 223 rem for that very reason. Even if I get the case all the way full and seat a 55 grain bullet on top, it doesn't give too much presure. On the other hand, it doesn't give too much accuracy (loaded that way) either!

 

[Flouncer]

I may be wrong, but it has been explained to me that a balance deflecting on a single grain is *not* the same as weighing a single grain. In other words, just because a balance moves on a single grain does not mean it has single grain resolution. Like I said though, I may have misunderstood what was being explained to me.

You are correct, of course. I just wanted a relative point of monetary insanity. $19 buys you 99.9% of the accuracy we need. Not repeatable, not certified weight. Just sensitivity. One single kernel sensitivity cost $19. The other $975 to get that little bit more.