Redding competition shellholder

[M-61]

from fguffey:

"All of this could have something to do with your cases having head space, my cases do not have head space,..."

This statement is in a large majority of your posts...somewhere in them. Sometimes it just appears, but appear it does with zero explanation of you might mean. Actually I have NO clue as to where this statement leads except to a pit of confusion. Someone reading this ( and you seem to feel that most if not all re-loaders are incapable of following what your statements mean.......unfortunately you are correct...but it has nothing to do with re-loaders mental skills...it is the way in which you present it) only winds up more confused thinking this horrible head-space thing is on their case and NOT yours.

The head space is in the chamber as you well know...the case is a reflection of the head-space. 50,000 psi has a way of making that happen. ( yes I know it may take a few firings but you are always moving there.) MY case, the OP's case, your case and everyone else's have this.

How on earth does this statement help the OP? I think your intentions are good but.....

 

[RonAKA]

I have a feeling that I missed the real question the OP was asking. I think what he really meant to ask was:

Why when I had this expensive custom gun built, and use a high end Redding Type S bushing die with competition shell holders to make it easy in getting the bump correct, am I not able to get the correct bump? That combination should work well and achieve your desired results.

Without rehashing it all, I think there are only two possible answers why it is not working:

1. The bushing die is defective and is shorter than it was designed to be, or someone has modified the die by facing it off.
2. The headspace of the chamber has been set well beyond the SAAMI maximum.

 

[Hntndad]

I have a feeling that I missed the real question the OP was asking. I think what he really meant to ask was:

Why when I had this expensive custom gun built, and use a high end Redding Type S bushing die with competition shell holders to make it easy in getting the bump correct, am I not able to get the correct bump? That combination should work well and achieve your desired results.

Without rehashing it all, I think there are only two possible answers why it is not working:

1. The bushing die is defective and is shorter than it was designed to be, or someone has modified the die by facing it off.
2. The headspace of the chamber has been set well beyond the SAAMI maximum.

Rifle has excessive headspace

 

[Cool Tool]

Rifle has excessive headspace[/QUOTE

Rifle has excessive headspace

If the op give solid measurements earlier in this post he does not have excess headspace.

 

[Hntndad]

If the op give solid measurements earlier in this post he does not have excess headspace.

Excessive may be a bit of a subjective term. If I supplied my smith with dummy rounds that measured on my comparator 1.603 and a 1x fired case measured 1.610, i would be talking to my smith. However, this post has been a bit difficult to follow with everything else going on. Respectfully, I don't have any chambers that need to have a die unscrewed 10 miles above the shell holder in order to match my brass to my chamber. However, I'm not above learning something new. Please feel free to pm me if you have the time to educate. Thanks

 

[Cool Tool]

Excessive may be a bit of a subjective term. If I supplied my smith with dummy rounds that measured on my comparator 1.603 and a 1x fired case measured 1.610, i would be talking to my smith. However, this post has been a bit difficult to follow with everything else going on. Respectfully, I don't have any chambers that need to have a die unscrewed 10 miles above the shell holder in order to match my brass to my chamber. However, I'm not above learning something new. Please feel free to pm me if you have the time to educate. Thanks

Well if you chamber a barrel an use the go an nogo gauges provided with reamer an you headspace to those gauges most generally you are going to end up with just what the op has got here.PS if the op wants to minimize shoulder bump he can back the die very little to achieve that I use standard shell holders for the cartridge I am using an adjust the dies accordingly to achieve the right amount of shoulder bump I don't buy hornady comparotors or any other I make my own using the chambering reamer of cartridge I am using

 

[Hntndad]

That's a fair statement. It's hard to get brass, reamer, die and smith all together at the same party sometimes.

 

[Cool Tool]

That's a fair statement. It's hard to get brass, reamer, die and smith all together at the same party sometimes.

Most factory ammo is generally shorter than actual gauges by at least a couple thousands thanks for bringing something like your response very good question I hope the op is reading this kind of stuff it may very well help with his questions thanks again.

 

[RonAKA]

Norma (new) - 1.603 datum to case head
Norma fire formed - 1.610 datum to case head.
Norma bumped shoulder with .010 shellholder - 1.605 datum to case head,hope that makes sense....

How did you measure that? What datum was used? The SAAMI spec is based on a 0.460" diameter datum on the shoulder.

 

[Hntndad]

This sort of thing is very common with saami chambers/factory chambers. 7saum, unless you discussed with your smith EXACTLY what you where looking for in the specifics of chamber size to brass fit, what you end with is a range of max case size, min chamber.
Saami chamber dimensions are 1.599-1.609. That's a 10thou variance. Toss in the brass allowable variance. Might as well toss in the die manufactures as well. You could easily end up with brass on the shorter end of the spectrum, a chamber on the larger end of the spectrum. That could easily account for a +- 10 thou right there. Then the die most likely is on the smaller side. A "competition" shell holder of +.010 may then STILL be too short to prevent moving the shoulder back more then your chamber size.
In a nut shell, it's not that difficult to end up with more then .010 difference and still be within spec.

 

[Hntndad]

How did you measure that? What datum was used? The SAAMI spec is based on a 0.460" diameter datum on the shoulder.

I assume he is using a comparator. Not always safe to do, I know. I don't exactly remember reading this though. It's hard to focus on the op and help HIM with his question when guffy is trying his Jedi mind trick..
The competition shell holders are fine to use when the chamber and die are fairly closely related in size. The comparator gave a measurement of 1.610 on a fired case. With his die and a +.010 shell holder it moved his shoulder measurement to 1.605. Ok. So what. The shell holder is still too short to prevent the die from moving the shoulder back more then he wants it to be. If he used a standard shell holder, it most likely will squash it back to somewhere around 1.595 if the die makes contact with the shell holder.
And that's with his brass in its current state of hardness.
I always find it best to remove the ejector and firing pin. Toss in your fired round. If the bolt handle drops. Don't worry. If it gives resistance then Start with the die backed out (you can use a guffy gauge if your so inclined) and adjust the die until the bolt handle JUST drops on the sized case. Measure with your comparator for reference.

 

[RonAKA]

Toss in the brass allowable variance.

Can't really blame the brass after it is fire formed to the chamber.

 

['Freak]

The brass more likely will require multiple firings, with zero shoulder setback in between those firings, before a fully fire formed case will exit the chamber finally having retained, after spring back, a case head to shoulder datum length very near same as the distance from the bolt face to the chamber’s shoulder datum.

Using the OP’s case head to shoulder datum reference numbers of 1.610” for a fired case, and 1.605” after FL sizing using his current size die setting on top of a Redding +.010” Comp shellholder, to me his numbers holler that there’s yet still at least .004”, and probably .005”, too much shoulder setback happening during the full length sizing. An easy enuf fix is to simply back the die out the press threads by 1/16th of a full turn (22.5°), still atop the +.010” Comp shellholder. Doing so [w/exacts] would result in a reference length of 1.6095” from head to shoulder datum, 1.605 + (1/14)(1/16) = 1.6095”, a half thousandth ‘shoulder bump’.

 

[fguffey]

I assume he is using a comparator. Not always safe to do, I know. I don't exactly remember reading this though. It's hard to focus on the op and help HIM with his question when guffy is trying his Jedi mind trick..

Like I have said there is a lot about what happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel reloaders do not understand. And I have said the same thing about sizing a case. You start out by saying; "I assume", why do you do that? Simply read what he is saying. I know it is rude to question your ability to read and comprehend but 'WE' are all reading the same stuff. What difference does it make when measuring from zero? I do not care what tool you are using, I can tell by the liberties you take when trying to make yourself look good at others expense you do not have a clue.

It matters not what tool he is using, there is a chance he is using a comparator. reloaders on this forum believe the comparator is a head space gage and the they believe the case has head space. If reloaders were not so impressionable they would question the answers, I did, the Hornady comparator has a radius, when the reloader uses a radius they do not have a zero. Hornady has been aware of this problem from the beginning. Again, Wilson case gages use a radius on their case gages. Problem; there is not enough curiosity among members of any reloading forum to determine how the case gage works, most reloadrs on this forum believe the Wilson case gage is a drop in gage. Wilson understand the value of being able to measure from zero.

Reminds me of Jimmy Dean when he ask the question; "Why did the chicken cross the road?" and we all knew no one knew the answer; so he said; "The chicken crossed the road to convince the opossum it could be done".

If you can not read a gage or if you do not know how a gage is used do not blame me.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

The Hornady tool is a comparator only as designed. The edge breaks in the bushings cause them to have some error that can be up to .005 or more.
So the tool works ok when you compare a new round to a fired round or a fired round to FL sized round. But they cannot make an accurate measurement that can be compared to the numbers on a SAAMI drawing.
However if you set it using a chamber head space gage with the proper shoulder angle and bushing diameter it can be used as a direct reading tool.
Since you set it to the dimension of the chamber head space gage it can easily measure the few thousandths difference from the gauge to the case length head to shoulder.

 

[fguffey]

Can't really blame the brass after it is fire formed to the chamber.

I have enough curiosity to ask; why doesn't the reloader know the length of the chamber from the shoulder and or datum to the bolt face before they start reloading and or sizing. On a side note I wonder because they have mastered the '.002" bump', I mean like that is all there is to know? I can not imagine how a reloader can 'bump' the case .002" but can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head to any length or on the other hand lengthen the case from the shoulder to the case head. I have sized cases with 25 different length because I have short chambered rifle and I have long chambered rifles and I want to eliminate those dangerous rifles with long chambers. there is no faster way to find a long chambered rifles than with a case that is too long from the shoulder to the case head, when the case is too long from the shoulder to the case head for the chamber the bolt will not close and then there are those that are close meaning it could be difficult to close the bolt. But for those reloaders that can measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head? I guess when reloaders get away from the .002" bump they have to have something to hand onto.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

Do you ever answer questions?

I have enough curiosity to ask; why doesn't the reloader know the length of the chamber from the shoulder and or datum to the bolt face before they start reloading and or sizing. On a side note I wonder because they have mastered the '.002" bump', I mean like that is all there is to know? I can not imagine how a reloader can 'bump' the case .002" but can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head to any length or on the other hand lengthen the case from the shoulder to the case head. I have sized cases with 25 different length because I have short chambered rifle and I have long chambered rifles and I want to eliminate those dangerous rifles with long chambers. there is no faster way to find a long chambered rifles than with a case that is too long from the shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey

 

[Hntndad]

Guffy. Your 1st sentence in your first post on this topic is "I assume". Please don't ask me why I do that. Best to look at your approach.

I will assume you used the #2 shell holder. And I will assume you assumed the case was sized; I am the fan of verifying. If I used the #2 shell holder and the top of the shell holder made contact with the bottom of the die the case should have been returned to minimum length/full length sized. But if there is a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder the case was not full length sized meaning the case was not returned to minimum length, is die contacted the shell holder the case returned to full length size + .002".

I have a set of the competition shell holders, it is a #6 set. I purchased it because the dealer at the gun show wanted $5.00 for the set. 3 of the shell holders are off by .001" each, that does not bother me because I have never used them and I have always used feeler gages when adjusting the die off the shell holder. I place the feeler gage between the top the shell holder and top of the die. I make the adjustment with a .02" thick feeler gage.

And then there are belted cases, the case belt sets in the shell holder on the belt. And then comes the part where you assume the case is sized because you raised the ram. I determine the case is sized when the top of the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die. And then there is that thing about the belted case being difficult to shove into the die because the case above the belt is too large in diameter.

I have found belted cases that failed because the case ahead of the belt was .017" larger in diameter than SAAMI said it should be.

F. Guffey

There is a whole lot of assuming going on there. Do you read what you write prior to hitting post reply?? No one on this post even cares about belted magnums at this point.

I have no intentions on making myself look good at anyone's expense. Not even close. This issue is very simple. When it is too complex for me to understand (keep in mind I operate on the HUMAN body). I keep my mouth shut and try to learn something. Many folks here do the same.
Mr. Guffy, respectfully, if you can't help a fellow shooter without staying on topic, explaining your methods, not be insulting, assuming no one on this forum contains the mental capacity to understand anything other then whatever it is you are trying to explain, then let me suggest not posting. Shake your head and keep it to yourself.. You have no business trying to teach someone ANYthing if you can't.
No one cares what tool the op is using when measuring his case. As long as it repeatable, he can use whatever he wants.
If his measuring and comparing is the problem, help him with that. If his chamber is on the larger side, explain why competition shell holders may not work for him. If his die is on the shorter side, suggest a clear method.
(The fella at the local tire, oil change and tune up center knows how to use feeler gauges. It's no mystery. I'm sure any member will understand and appreciate the guidance and perhaps enjoy learning your methods if your good enough to know how to explain yourself.)

The op wanted to use competition shell holders, probably because it sounds a whole hell of a lot easier to use then feeler gauges and backing a die in and out. I use them on SOME cases. They work 100%. All day every day.

Simple answer. His die oversizes his cases, fired in his chamber, too much to use even the +.010 shell holder. Find an alternative method.
No need to make fun of anyone because they read a million "shoulder bump" articles. Suggest an alternative approach respectfully and CLEARLY. Unless, you enjoy looking like an Ass to the majority of the forum. Including some very well respected, intelligent and proven shooters and smiths.
Now, this is my opinion based on my experiences. If you can take an educated approach to suggest I could be more efficient, accurate, and repeatable then I am all ears!! Otherwise, no need to converse.

 

[rifleman700]

Like I have said there is a lot about what happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel reloaders do not understand. And I have said the same thing about sizing a case. You start out by saying; "I assume", why do you do that? Simply read what he is saying. I know it is rude to question your ability to read and comprehend but 'WE' are all reading the same stuff. What difference does it make when measuring from zero? I do not care what tool you are using, I can tell by the liberties you take when trying to make yourself look good at others expense you do not have a clue.

It matters not what tool he is using, there is a chance he is using a comparator. reloaders on this forum believe the comparator is a head space gage and the they believe the case has head space. If reloaders were not so impressionable they would question the answers, I did, the Hornady comparator has a radius, when the reloader uses a radius they do not have a zero. Hornady has been aware of this problem from the beginning. Again, Wilson case gages use a radius on their case gages. Problem; there is not enough curiosity among members of any reloading forum to determine how the case gage works, most reloadrs on this forum believe the Wilson case gage is a drop in gage. Wilson understand the value of being able to measure from zero.

Reminds me of Jimmy Dean when he ask the question; "Why did the chicken cross the road?" and we all knew no one knew the answer; so he said; "The chicken crossed the road to convince the opossum it could be done".

If you can not read a gage or if you do not know how a gage is used do not blame me.

F. Guffey

What's a gage?

 

[dedogs]

Has anyone else noticed that the original poster has not responded in several days? Probably got confused or turned off by all the bickering. Just sayin'. dedogs