Rechambering a .223 into a .223 AI

[Ggmac]

keep it safe , that's what's important . Good enough didn't get us to the moon !

 

[savagedasher]

What page does it say than on, Larry? I have both books right here on the shelf.

Take them off the shelf and Read them both.
He tell about how to fire fourm cases .
The .004 was what I was told.
That is how much the shoulder set back is needed for a stock barrel to clean up using a head space gauge.
For years The chambers were improved by hand reaming and fire fourm ether the bulletseated long. Larry

 

[Ggmac]

Dang Larry , what do you do when you not doin this , do it correctly . I don't care who or what told you , it's not safe to pass on rumors and wives tales . What do you do when the orig chambers neck is larger or off center ( cut at the factory with a pilotless reamer ) than the new Ackley reamer ? I'll tell you what , you end up with a 2 diam neck . That can't be , cause you were told diff .

 

[shortgrass]

I HAVE read them both, Larry! Nowhere do I recall seeing Ackley recommend hand reaming a SAAMI chamber and jamming the bullet. That's the way 'hacks', that think they're gunsmiths, do it. They don't have a lathe, so they ream it by hand, and to do that they increase the headspace. Ackley DOES recommend a .004" crush on the parent case. It allows 'factory' ammo to safely be fired in the chamber. No handloaded ammo with bullet jamming required. It doesn't stretch brass to it's unsafe limits in the wrong places. It causes ALL forming to take the brass from the front of the case, not the head end, where a case head separation might happen. If any others who are following this thread care to look, there's a good couple of pages on Dave Mansons' web site. Or you can buy P.O. Ackleys' books, "Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders" from many different sources, including MidWay, Brownells and Amazon among others. There is a good couple of paragraphs on the Nosler blog explaining the .280AI, written by the "Boys' at Nosler. The .223AI follows the same principle. There is more GOOD information about Ackley improved cases, chambering and fire forming from many reputable sources, all ya' gotta' do is Google it. Consider the author of the information and separate the wheat from the chaff. Bad information peddled as 'fact' does a dis-service to us all.

 

[savagedasher]

Dang Larry , what do you do when you not doin this , do it correctly . I don't care who or what told you , it's not safe to pass on rumors and wives tales . What do you do when the orig chambers neck is larger or off center ( cut at the factory with a pilotless reamer ) than the new Ackley reamer ? I'll tell you what , you end up with a 2 diam neck . That can't be , cause you were told diff .

You use a pilot use reamer . Back the they didn't have bushings.
If you get both Ackley books and read them.

Your going find most wildcat cases were Ackley. Without him all cases would be tapered and long neck angle.
All gun smiths back then threaded and chambered with a lathe using a dog and steady rest the reamer was hand held .
Many still do it the same way.
Changing from a 223 to a 223 AI all your doing is removeing some of the case angle and changing the shoulder angle Reamer if held straight will cut the same amount off each side and the pilot should do the rest.
If your not skillful enough to do it hire it done.
Larry

 

[Eddie Harren]

This may end up being the BTE on this forum. Cancel my subscription to MAD magazine!
And the Funny papers.

 

[Ggmac]

Larry , some factory barrels are , were cut without pilots at all , not talking about solid or interchangeable . Pilotless . Now I can see how you misunderstand and re quote it as fact , you don't understand terms .

 

[savagedasher]

I HAVE read them both, Larry! Nowhere do I recall seeing Ackley recommend hand reaming a SAAMI chamber and jamming the bullet. That's the way 'hacks', that think they're gunsmiths, do it. They don't have a lathe, so they ream it by hand, and to do that they increase the headspace. Ackley DOES recommend a .004" crush on the parent case. It allows 'factory' ammo to safely be fired in the chamber. No handloaded ammo with bullet jamming required. It doesn't stretch brass to it's unsafe limits in the wrong places. It causes ALL forming to take the brass from the front of the case, not the head end, where a case head separation might happen. If any others who are following this thread care to look, there's a good couple of pages on Dave Mansons' web site. Or you can buy P.O. Ackleys' books, "Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders" from many different sources, including MidWay, Brownells and Amazon among others. There is a good couple of paragraphs on the Nosler blog explaining the .280AI, written by the "Boys' at Nosler. The .223AI follows the same principle. There is more GOOD information about Ackley improved cases, chambering and fire forming from many reputable sources, all ya' gotta' do is Google it. Consider the author of the information and separate the wheat from the chaff. Bad information peddled as 'fact' does a dis-service to us all.

I never said he did. Most Ackley chambers never had a SAAMI specifications . When he done all his work the cut the chambers by hand. May were done with a Brace and turned by hand.
I have two sets of his books one soft case and the other is hard case signed To Ken Trout PO Ackley
Ken Rechambered my first Ackley gun. That was 1963 all done by hand .
Ken also was a certified gun smith.
How many of them do you know . None here
Larry

 

[Ggmac]

Ok my point is made , I'm done . Let's just agree that there's a professional way and a bubba way . Lots of attorneys make HUGE money off of bubbas way .

 

[savagedasher]

Ok my point is made , I'm done . Let's just agree that there's a professional way and a bubba way . Lots of attorneys make HUGE money off of bubbas way .[/. Let's a agree I don't know many that I want working on my guns.
Just a lathe and some tools don't make you a professional . Larry

 

[Cold Bore]

Ackley is shoulder angle change and doesn't change head space enough to worry about.

Shoulder angle is the only difference? Headspace difference is not enough to worry about? Wow....

Just seat the bullet long and shoot it.

Do you know what happens when headspace is too long, and you just "seat a bullet long and shoot it"? You really don't understand all of this stuff, do you?

Ackley never a true specification . Because it was a wild cat

So a "wildcat" doesn't have any "specifications"? We can just make this all up as we go, and call them all good? Are all Dashers made "without specification"? Is yours different than mine? "Wildcat" doesn't mean "free-for-all" or "make it up on the fly" or "they're sorta close to each other so we'll call it good".

Ken also was a certified gun smith. How many of them do you know . None here

"Certified" means less than diddly squat. Pay your money to a trade school, or take an online course, while learning nothing and you can get a "certificate" that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And you're implying that there are no qualified or knowledgeable gunsmiths here? Amazing.

Just a lathe and some tools don't make you a professional

But a "certificate" does, huh?

 

[shortgrass]

Please define "certified gunsmith". I know of no certification available. Just because a person has a FFL doesn't mean they know what they're doing. A FFL just defines your legal statis, nothing else. I DO have a diploma from the 2yr. gunsmithing program taught at Montgomery Community College in Troy, N.C.. I graduated in '93 near the top of the class and have built many, many rifles since then and made just as many repairs that most won't even attempt,,,,,,, like removing a rib on a set of classic shotgun tubes, cleaning away the old solder and then re-soldering the rib, back into place and then rust bluing them. I can be a darned good metal finisher when properly motivated ($$$$$$$). I've made about a dozen stocks from blanks, too. And I don't mean pre-inletted blanks, I mean "a hunk of hardwood". I have about 40yrs of machine shop experience. I've set-up, operated, installed and repaired many different machine tools over the years. From bench lathes to tool & cutter grinders to multiple spindle Acme bar machines to CNC lathes and mills. There's not a manual machine I can think of that I've not put "hands-on", including shapers and P&W deep hole drilling machine, jig boring machines, too. Does any of that make me "certified'? I still do the machine shop thing part time and that way I don't have to 'deal' with as many idiots in the gunsmith shop. In the past, many got "Ackleyfied" without setting back and for variety of reasons from "the gunsmith didn't have a lathe" to "the owner was not willing to deface his prized pre-64 Winchesters. I set the barrels back on 3 pre'64s last yr for a customer because he didn't want the rifles passed to his heirs in the condition where they shouldn't fire factory ammo in them because the chambers were 'long'. He understood the need to create a false "shoulder" when fire forming brass for these rifles but he didn't want to pass on rifles that might, in the end, be a danger to someone he cared about. Seems every couple of yrs I do this for someone. To recommend, on an interdnet forum, hand reaming (which doesn't produce the nicest finish, by the way) without setting the barrel back and setting the headspace where factory ammo can safely be fired in it, is totally irresponsible. You seem to be very good at giving out irresponsible advice, without regard to the skills or knowledge of those you are giving it to. Not good! You do a dis-service to all who strive to do the work in a manner that promotes safety and responsibility. Putting you on "ignore" is probably the best thing I can do to keep my blood pressure in check!

 

[savagedasher]

Shoulder angle is the only difference? Headspace difference is not enough to worry about? Wow....



Do you know what happens when headspace is too long, and you just "seat a bullet long and shoot it"? You really don't understand all of this stuff, do you?



So a "wildcat" doesn't have any "specifications"? We can just make this all up as we go, and call them all good? Are all Dashers made "without specification"? Is yours different than mine? "Wildcat" doesn't mean "free-for-all" or "make it up on the fly".



"Certified" means less than diddly squat. Pay your money to a trade school, or take an online course, while learning nothing and you can get a "certificate" that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And you're implying that there are no qualified or knowledgeable gunsmiths here? Amazing.



But a "certificate" does, huh?

No but it was it was require to work on guns. Without it it was like a doctor not haveing a certificate.
Many went to school for years to get it.. Most states require it to have a gun repair business . I rember when they had tool and die makers were certified .
I know none .
A gun smith can make any Part in a gun.
Try to find a smith who makes leaf springs for a shotgun. If you know one let me know.
Larry

 

[shortgrass]

Larry, I can make springs, too! Now you're on "ignore"!

 

[Cold Bore]

No but it was it was require to work on guns..... Most states require it to have a gun repair business .

A "certificate" is "required" to work on guns? Really? I learn something new every day......

From where does one obtain one of these invaluable and necessary certificates, and who polices the possession and currency of said certificates?

A gun smith can make any Part in a gun. Try to find a smith who makes leaf springs for a shotgun. If you know one let me know.

Yep, there are none that can do it. Every time a classic side-by-side shotgun breaks, and we can't buy a spring to fit from Harbor Freight, we just throw the shotgun away and replace it with a Mossberg pump.

 

[Ggmac]

I said I was done , BUT , even though I retired many years ago , I'll make you a leaf or , coil spring . Heck I'll even give you a bubba discount .

Even retired I keep liability insurance . It's because of bubbas misinformation that keeps the premium goin up and up .

 

[Riesel]

This may end up being the BTE on this forum. Cancel my subscription to MAD magazine!
And the Funny papers.

Hmm, I'm seeing a pattern here.