Reason why some die mfrs don’t make Wilson style seaters

[Bob L.]

Excellent! I learned a new word - neoplastic.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Excellent! I learned a new word - neoplastic.

Almost, it's spelled "pleonastic".

'Neoplastic' is a tumorous growth or something. Lol.

 

[Ccrider]

Almost, it's spelled "pleonastic".

'Neoplastic' is a tumorous growth or something. Lol.

So, does that mean he has learned two new words?

 

[oldroper]

Reason why some die mfrs don’t make inline seaters

Because Redding and Forster benchrest seating dies are better, and can actually correct neck runout.

Reloading: Seating Die Runout. Seating Die Induced Runout - A Comparison by Germán A. Salazar

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiVorCfmq3fAhXomOAKHbIpCYkQFjAAegQIBxAC&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

And now, the moment you've been waiting for...
#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.

As you know German Salazar test was done with LC brass and when German Salazar was testing load in his 30-06 match rifles he used Wilson seater for loading at range. You should stay more current with what being used.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html

 

[Macropod]

I thought about Wilson dies for reloading but if I am achieving sub 0.0005" run out with my current set up, what would be the advantage?

 

[JMayo]

Almost, it's spelled "pleonastic".

'Neoplastic' is a tumorous growth or something. Lol.

Do you drink that ? Or just rub it on ?

I thought about Wilson dies for reloading but if I am achieving sub 0.0005" run out with my current set up, what would be the advantage?

I think when working with .005 in lengths an arbor with micro seater is a must.
(Bench rest shooter)

 

[Uncle Ed]

As you know German Salazar test was done with LC brass and when German Salazar was testing load in his 30-06 match rifles he used Wilson seater for loading at range. You should stay more current with what being used.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html

Copyright © 2009 German Salazar and AccurateShooter.com | 6mmBR.com, All Rights Reserved.
No reproduction of any content without advanced permission in writing.

The link you posted was from 2009 and posted at 6mmbr.com and had nothing to do with his seating die testing.
Current link my gluteus maximus.

The Redding and Forster benchrest seating dies with the die chamber actually had the ability to correct runout. And came in first place in the runout testing and the Wilson die came in second.

 

[Bob L.]

Almost, it's spelled "pleonastic".

'Neoplastic' is a tumorous growth or something. Lol.

Dyslexia, I guess, or Freudian slip. I do have cancer. I even looked pleonastic up before posting. Still got it wrong.

 

[mikecr]

Bullet seating dies do not straighten necks nor case bodies. They do not reduce runout. At best, they do not introduce more runout.
INLINE mitigated an issue many dealt with more commonly in the past: Ram+Shell holder+Press Threading+Die summing out of alignment. The 'Inline' die removed 3 of the 4 contributors.
Wilson also touted the 'chambering' of dies, implying perfect case fit, as with their other tools.

I have custom threaded dies and good presses that work well, but have never had a problem with wilson dies(factory & custom). They work really well too.

 

[Bart B.]

Seater die bullet guide diameters:

Wilson BR chamber type .308, circa 1966;. .3105"
RCBS standard .308, circa 1966; . . . . . . . . .3100"
RCBS standard .308, circa 1979; . . . . . . . . .3115"
RCBS competition .308, circa 1980's; . . . . .3107"
RCBS standard .300 Win Mag, circa 1999, .3104"
RCBS standard .30-.338, circa 1967, . . . . . .3102"
Bonanza BR .30-.338, circa 1980; . . . . . . . .3093"

30 caliber bullet diameters I've measured go from .3070" to .3092".
Sierras were all .3082" except the 155 gr. Palma at .3084".

 

[dgeesaman]

So today I had a quick chat with Carrie Whidden, and her explanation is that Whidden got started making seating dies with much of the same as their sizing dies. It would take some R&D work to get into arbor press seaters, and its not currently an offering.

Whidden is not saying arbor dies are inferior or superior, just that they make regular threaded seating press dies and their customers are doing very well with them.

So there you go choose as you prefer.

FWIW, my arbor press die is a well worn Neil Jones die and it gets +\- .001 on seating length. My Redding
Comp seater does +\- .002, sometimes much better. I believe in either case the consistency comes from the comparative fit of the seater stem, COAL gauge, and bullet ogive.

David

 

[Ledd Slinger]

INLINE mitigated an issue many dealt with more commonly in the past: Ram+Shell holder+Press Threading+Die summing out of alignment. The 'Inline' die removed 3 of the 4 contributors.
Wilson also touted the 'chambering' of dies, implying perfect case fit, as with their other tools.

Excellent. That makes the term "inline" clear to me now. Thanks for that

 

[Ledd Slinger]

... I believe in either case the consistency comes from the comparative fit of the seater stem, COAL gauge, and bullet ogive.

David

Seater stem and ogive consistency has everything to do with consistency of seating depth. Good match grade bullets will usually give a very consistent measurement from base to ogive where the bullet meets the lands. Anywhere else on the ogive may not be as consistent. Unfortunately, most all seater stems do not contact the bullet for seating at that point.

I firmly believe that the closer you can get to the stem making contact on the ogive lands touch point, the more consistent your depths will be. The Wilson VLD stems do a good job of contacting the bullet fairly low on the ogive. Other mainstream threaded dies are pretty bad in that regard. For that reason, I will usually 'competely' drill out the stem cavity and bed the stem with JB weld or Marine Tex to the bullet I will be using. Then drill out the center portion of the bedding in the stem so the bullet is only contacted further down on the ogive. This also gives perfect shape contact for the bullet you are using. No ring marks left on the ogive no matter how much neck tension you have. While testing my stem bedding theory and method, I took before and after seating depth measurements. My seating depth consistency with mainstream threaded dies was improved significantly. Of course you'll still get a bad blet here and there which is of course where blet sorting will save you some disappointment later on.

Here's a few I measured for the last die after I bedded the stem. Just a 'Plain Jane' standard Redding seater die with Berger bullets. Measurment showed me I might have missed one bullet while sorting Other than that, all depths within a .001" window with super low runout. I might be getting a little carried away with the .0005" error of the one bullet

 

[Uncle Ed]

Bullet seating dies do not straighten necks nor case bodies. They do not reduce runout. At best, they do not introduce more runout.
INLINE mitigated an issue many dealt with more commonly in the past: Ram+Shell holder+Press Threading+Die summing out of alignment. The 'Inline' die removed 3 of the 4 contributors.
Wilson also touted the 'chambering' of dies, implying perfect case fit, as with their other tools.

I have custom threaded dies and good presses that work well, but have never had a problem with wilson dies(factory & custom). They work really well too.

That is funny, German Salazars seating die test proved otherwise.

The Rankings
And now, the moment you've been waiting for...
#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.

#2 - Wilson (chamber type, for arbor press)
I expected the Wilson to come out on top, given it's long-standing reputation as the
best seating die and its near universal use in Benchrest shooting. It didn't quite work
out that way, but the Wilson was very good, with only three rounds increasing runout
and an equal number decreasing, the remainder were zero-change. Wilson Average
Runout Change: +0.00015".

 

[Macropod]

With Redding competition seating dies I have had good luck with them after machining up a new seater stem out of better steel. This allows closer contact to the ogive/bearing surface junction with in the constraints of the original design.

Primarily the goal was to allow contact closer to the bearing surface. There are gains to be had in cbto consistency. The ultimate is to make a new sleeve using the same reamer used the chamber the rifle you are loading for. Also, the seater stem and bore can be made considerably larger imho. Provided the bullet placement prior to seating is not obscenely out of line I don't think that a close fitting seater bore in relation to bullet diameter will achieve all that much. This is where the design of the seater stem will pay off. The aforementioned comments relate to the Redding competition style of seaters. When I have a little more time I will experiment with the latter idea.

Great concentricity allied with accurate and consistant cbto readings round to round should reap benefits.

 

[Bart B.]

...the cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case.

Martin Hull's famous by line. I once asked him at a match how he came up with that concept. He said working with a tool and die machinist at Sierra Bullets getting best accuracy testing bullets. Ferris Pindell, one of the "P" letters in the PPC cartridge development

 

[Puzzaz01]

The loader needs to decide and have confidence in his work. You can take two different shooters using two completely different set ups and at the end of the day both are capable of producing quality loads that either of them can win with. Find what works for you, build confidence in it and go win!!!

Darrin

 

[Bart B.]

Wilson also touted the 'chambering' of dies, implying perfect case fit, as with their other tools.

What's a perfect fit?

Near zero clearance between case and bullet?

 

[Richard Coody]

Reason why some die mfrs don’t make Wilson style seaters

well the wilson in line seater is a very simple and effective bullet seater. i prefer them. i have redding and forster that do a fine job. But when you are working.with a bench gun and trying to refine neck tension and bullet seating.force an arbor press is essential. After you have used an arbor press with an in-line seater it is hard to go back.

any gunsmith can make an in-line seater. on my wildcats and any cartridge wilson doesn't make a seater for i send in a wilson blank and while my gunsmith is chambering the barrel he chambers the wilson blank. i am sure if someone thought they could make some money at it wilson would have.lots of competition. I think most reloaders are happy with their threaded seaters.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Martin Hull's famous by line. I once asked him at a match how he came up with that concept. He said working with a tool and die machinist at Sierra Bullets getting best accuracy testing bullets. Ferris Pindell, one of the "P" letters in the PPC cartridge development

The people who knew and worked with him called him Jim.