Question: Is F/TR becoming too specialized?

[LESLEY]

Yous killing me Eric. LOL

 

[Lbart]

This discussion is getting a bit out of hand so, as one of the first F-Class shooters in the USA let me give you a bit of back ground. In the beginning Geo. Farquharson of Canada started FC up north to allow aging shooters who could no longer see well with irons sights and/or hold a rifle still with a sling, an option to be able to continue shooting alongside their friends of many years. There were no rules on weight/rests etc. as such. In 2000 at the DCRA Championships in Ottawa a get together was held by interested shooters to try and setup some rules for the first F-Class World Championships. The only restriction on caliber was the 8mm one for their range fan. A rifle weight limit was discussed and I wanted a 16.5 limit so any Lt rifle 1k BR rifle could be used for both. This would also have kept the case size down due to recoil. Since there were already a few shooting 25lb rifles a compromise of 10kg (22lbs) was made. At that time everyone shot in the only class ...F-Class. I shot a 16.5 lb 6BR and won a fair amount of major matches.

As the game spread here in the States new shooters wanted to shoot what they had and wanted to win. Near every person felt their rifle should have a class of its own. The people who were doing their best to grow the sport in the USA and aground the world got together and decided an additional class (F/TR) would be added for the first US FCN championships in 2004. The weight limit (8.25 kg/18.18lbs) was decided on based on the weight of most Palma/TR rifles plus the weight of a bipod (Harris at that time) and a target scope. This class was restricted to .308/.223 since these calibers were what the founding father old Farky and his friends shot. At the time I was pestered night and day to open the caliber pool up. When that happened I would say "OK I'll just put a bipod on my 16.5lb 6BR and shoot with/against you". We were pestered to limit barrel length, scope power and everything else under the sun. Did we make a mistake? I don't think so. F/TR is growing by leaps and bounds worldwide. The sport cannot handle another class. There are too many ranges where Open and F/TR have to be lumped together for awards as it is.

As someone pointed out, many say they will shoot, if only there was a class for this or that, but in 50 years of competitive experience I have observed one thing... Only real competitors will compete and they will compete where the competition is.

People; FC did not just happen, a lot of people put their time, money and sweat making it happen. If you want to shoot something else other than F/TR and Open then you have the option of working your butt off starting a new discipline and in 10 or 12 years maybe you will have a following the size of FC. Until then leave a working formula alone.

 

[wooger]

I have been shooting F Class for about a year now and have competed in both T/R and F Open. One of the things that attracted me to this type of competition was the simplicity of the rules and how a person could show up with just about any rifle and compete. Of course I have started to improve my equipment based on experience and observing my competitors, but it will be my "sharpshooter" abilities that limit me, not my gear.
I think extra classes are unnecessary in these divisions because the rules are already accommodating. I see a wide variety of rifles on the line and usually it's the shooter that makes the difference.

 

[DBailey]

If you think people are buying their wins with expensive equipment you should get rid of the rest and scope. Come back to the original LR game of sling shooting an unsupported rifle with iron sights where the best shooter wins not the equipment.

LOL That's a good one buddy.
I wish you could buy a win at the nationals. I would in a second. haha
But I don't think it can be done.

Next time you're on the line with all those griping old guys shooting at that giant target think of all the fun you could have shooting F-Class. LOL

 

[Steve Blair]

As someone pointed out, many say they will shoot, if only there was a class for this or that, but in 50 years of competitive experience I have observed one thing... Only real competitors will compete and they will compete where the competition is.

Larry, truer words never spoken.

 

[mattt]

I shot my first f/tr match 1 year ago it was a 3,5,6,8 . I was newer to shooting and shot my varmint 308. I had so much fun I have shot almost every f/tr match since at Sac Valley. I didnt care I finished in last almost evertime for the next 6 months I just wanted to try to get better each match. I even shot a mini 14 at a couple matches. F/TR is perfect the way it is. It is great for the new shooter to get them into competition shooting! I am hooked

 

[Laurie]

The weight limit (8.25 kg/18.18lbs) was decided on based on the weight of most Palma/TR rifles plus the weight of a bipod (Harris at that time) and a target scope. This class was restricted to .308/.223 since these calibers were what the founding father old Farky and his friends shot. At the time I was pestered night and day to open the caliber pool up. When that happened I would say "OK I'll just put a bipod on my 16.5lb 6BR and shoot with/against you". We were pestered to limit barrel length, scope power and everything else under the sun. Did we make a mistake? I don't think so. F/TR is growing by leaps and bounds worldwide. [LBart]

Larry, thanks for filling in the issues and details of how the rules for both F and F/TR evolved and the thought processes behind the decisions from one closely involved in making and influencing them. This has filled several gaps in my understanding of how we got to where we now are.

As a not very good 6BR rifle equipped 'Effer' at the time, I was puzzled when I first heard about F/TR and thought maybe it should use a larger cartridge pool, for example factory designs based on the .308W case like .260 Rem and 7mm-08 etc as well as the parent design. Over time, I've come to see the wisdom of the decision made by Larry and others to stick with the traditional TR / Fullbore / Palma cartridges - which in practice, a few .223 shooting eccentrics like myself aside, means one cartridge, the .308W. Not only has it provided a huge spur to the further development of what are the Northern hemisphere's two most popular target cartridges, in particular the bullets they use, likewise improved precision handloading tools and practices, this being an intrinsic element of F-Class, but has avoided a huge number of problems.

One can ask 'Why .223 / .308 and a bi-pod?" until the cows come home, but experience has shown it is a winning formula. Secondly, while heavily loaded .223/.308 handloads allied to a 1-MOA size bull have reduced barrel accuracy-life compared to the same cartridges in Target / Fullbore Rifle and a 2-MOA size bull, it is still good. .243, .260 etc loaded to similar pressures will always reduce barrel life VERY significantly compared to .308W. But also .... as clever people like B. Litz Esq introduce new bullets, we'd be back to switching calibres and cartridges every time a new model gave a perceived advantage, .243 this year, .260 the next, 7mm-08 the year after that. Yes, we've had lots of new 0.308" bullets over the last two or three years too, but they generally work in the same barrel. Thoughts on rifling twist rates and throating vary, but that's part and parcel of keeping up with technical developments, and as I said in an earlier post this is a technical discipline and appeals to, occasionally rewards, people who understand the basic issues and trade-offs involved in getting the best solutions and therefore make optimum choices.

But ..... and I feel guilty here having indirectly started this subject off by mentioning on another thread on this forum that a few GB national league F/TR shooters have two rifles with fast and slow twist barrels / long and short throating to allow a choice between 210s and 155s according to how the wind is blowing

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3770309.0.html

I really believe that while this sort of technical gamesmanship might pay off occasionally in extreme conditions, it has downsides as well as upsides. Far more important, rifle handling, basic marksmanship skills and expertise, in particular expertise in wind-reading, allied to good handloading and load-development practices count for more over the course of the season provided one has obtained a shooting stick that attains the minimum standard of precision and is able to provide suitable MVs for the distances being shot over. No, that won't let Bubba and his PSS win 1,000yd matches as Monte Milanuk pointed out in an earlier post (although Bubba may very well win 200-800yd matches if he's a good enough shot and wind-reader and has fallen really lucky with his Big Green purchase).

F/TR might not be the cheapest form of shooting sports going, but no precision long-range discipline is. It does provide very good value for money at whatever level people shoot it, and a constant refrain is that the equipment people have bought is capable of producing better scores than they are, always a desirable situation that incentivises the person to shoot more often and hone his or her skills. Overall, I'd argue the 'package' works and is not showing signs of being jaded - a view that many respondents on this thread appear to share and which the growth in match entry numbers support. I get far more requests over here in the UK about F/TR equipment, bullets for .308 Win and loads than about all other shooting disciplines put together.

 

[memilanuk]

I think part of what I find so hilarious / offensive about the concept of sticking the varmint rifles and custom tactical rifles in the mid-weight hot-rod hi BC / lo drag categories... is that in my experience of the people who complain the most about having to shoot in F/Open built their rifles to 'game' the rules (or lack there of) in tactical matches, and beat the .308 Winchester rifles and not have to learn to read the wind or judge the wind as tight. Now they *want* to shoot shoulder to shoulder with the .308 Winchester guys, rather than be thrown in the deep end with the big fish in F/Open. I wonder why that is... :

I'll throw this out there, just for the heck of it.

If you think F/TR is too specialized and want to shoot a .243/.260/etc. off a bipod, maybe this will appeal to you.

Make F/TR shoot from a 'traditional' folding bipod. I have no problem at all shooting from my ole Harris 6-9" BRMS w/ Pod-Loc & Pod-Paws and a cordura bean bag for the rear... wouldn't slow me down one bit.

Make F/Open shoot from a bipod (any kind) but it must be included in the weight limit like the Canadians do it. That should 'level' the playing field somewhat for the people wanting a 'tweener' class for the factory varmint rifles and/or tactical rifles in calibers other than .223 Rem or .308 Win.

Create a F/Unlimited class for the 22lb rifles, 25lb rear bags, 30lb front rests, mallets for pounding in the spikes on the rests and e-tools for leveling out the firing point.

I'm sure somebody will find something to complain about... but then I'm not too awful worried about it

BTW, Lige (gaintwist)... speaking of 'buying points' and alluding to iron-sights/Palma being 'purer' in that sense... tell me you don't have the better part of $1000 (or more) tied up in your iron sights alone - perhaps a 30mm front, plus adj. aperature, plus a diopter, a Warner rear sight ($500+ right there) plus a rear adj. aperature. Tell me you aren't using a high-end custom action, custom trigger, etc. Tell me you're shooting a factory Palma rifle with Lyman sights or better yet a Service Rifle shooting S80MKs and *then* a Palma shooter can talk to me about being 'pure' vs 'buying points'. I'm not poking at your gear in particular, as I have no idea what you actually run for equipment. But I think you get the gist of what I'm speaking... Palma is a competitive shooting sport just like any other, and there are people who will spend any amount, buy the latest widgets, whatever it takes, to 'buy points' - it ain't just F-class, and Palma/Fullbore sure as hell ain't exempt.

Monte

 

[mattt]

At Sac Valley 2 weeks ago Lane B with his 308 palma rifle with iron sights won the Tactical class just to show them how its done ;D at a 8, 9 1k match

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Make F/TR shoot from a 'traditional' folding bipod. I have no problem at all shooting from my ole Harris 6-9" BRMS w/ Pod-Loc & Pod-Paws and a cordura bean bag for the rear... wouldn't slow me down one bit.

Monte

But Monte, you already use the cordura bag

Seriously, the bipod doesn't buy points. I've been slicing and dicing my way through mid-range club matches and haven't had anyone with an expensive bipod beat me there. Now, I am shooting a Caldwell folding bipod that I modified by making foot covers out of PVC pipe caps and furniture slides. And man was that thing expensive! I have almost $75 total in my bipod alone!

Funny thing is, a nicer, more expensive bipod might make the rifle easier to set up again after a shot, but it doesn't shoot your score. In my case, every point I've lost in recent memory has been the fault of the guy reading (guessing at) the wind (me).

I also beat all comers, all calibers, in the local 600 yard league. They allowed everything there, muzzle brakes and all. What did I use? My trusty old Savage 111 action (never been touched) and a pre-fit barrel - yup, 308. Nope, I don't have a Nightforce on it. I'm using a 20+ year old Leupold Vari-X III varmint scope. That same rifle shot 100-7x Tuesday night during a practice session in absolutely calm conditions. Why not 10X? Simple, I didn't have a good no-wind zero (my fault that it took 2 shots to find) and I pulled one shot just .050 right of the X ring and called it before the target went down into the pits.

Moral of the story: for $1000 dollars you can build a heck of a competetive rifle. The driver is the limiting factor, not the rifle in 99% of cases.

I can hand my "junkyard dog" to a top shooter and take his or her work of art. Will that change the outcome? I doubt it!

If my opinion isn't apparent yet, I would love to have an expensive "perfect" rifle, but it isn't going to transform me into a better shooter than I am.

 

[model 12 toby]

that is great.

 

[1000yardstare]

LBart...........great posting.

I had included the "Farky" story in my first posting but it disappeared into the cosmos??

Sometimes details get lost over the years. To put it as simple as possible, a senior Canadian Palma shooter asked the DCRA Exec if he could shoot his .308 Palma rifle with a front rest and a scope sight at the Canadian Championships because his eyes and arms couldn`t handle the rigours of Palma anymore. Thus was born F Class. It was an attempt by a senior shooter to keep competing. Nothing more complicated than that. He just happened to own a .308 Palma rifle.

I shot Palma in the 1980s and can remember old guys crying in their cars at a practise because their eyes couldn`t handle iron sights anymore. There was a move by the DCRA in the late 1980s to experiment with Any Sight but still with a sling much like the U.S. Long Range event. I shot the `demonstration` event at the 1989 DCRA Championships with a heavy barrel Ruger 77 in .25-06. I do not remember Any Sight being eligible for prizes but it allowed senior shooters to continue in their sport.

So the precedent for a scope sight was already there. It just took a highly respected shooter like Farky to complete the transition to a front rest and persuade the powers that be to allow his style of shooting to be eligible for prizes.

Rule changes were accelerated over the past decade by the DCRA, U.S. NRA, the British NRA and ICFRA. And here we are.

Bill

 

[memilanuk]

Make F/TR shoot from a 'traditional' folding bipod. I have no problem at all shooting from my ole Harris 6-9" BRMS w/ Pod-Loc & Pod-Paws and a cordura bean bag for the rear... wouldn't slow me down one bit.

But Monte, you already use the cordura bag

And I keep my Harris close at hand, usually tucked in the side-pocket of my gun case

Seriously, the bipod doesn't buy points.

...a nicer, more expensive bipod might make the rifle easier to set up again after a shot, but it doesn't shoot your score. In my case, every point I've lost in recent memory has been the fault of the guy reading (guessing at) the wind (me).

I know that... obviously you know that... most people who leave the excuses at the ready line and just go shoot know that... but it seems to be one of the primary points of contention with the folks out there that somehow think they are out-classed before they fire a shot because someone else is running a 'fancy' bipod. Case in point, the proposed FPR rules I linked to earlier in this thread (and it seems a great many people ignored) specifically prohibit any bipod that doesn't fold up and fit with in a certain size 'box'. While I don't particularly agree with them about the bipods, it might be the simplest way to silence some of the sniveling... although I can just imagine that it wouldn't be long before we saw Harris clones (or Atlas) made from titanium & carbon fiber... :

 

[maxpower]

How many clubs out there run a sporter class for hunting style rifles?

 

[RDavies]

Just a heads up as to how things are in Australia. The Australian version of F/TR is called F/standard and the differences are you can shoot off a front rest and maximum rifle wight is 8kgs without bipod or 10kg with one. We are also limited to using certain 80gn and 155gn projectiles and certain powders.
Even with the limits on projectiles used, we still have top F/std shooters going through barrels quicker than F Open shooters. F/std here is more popular here than F Open and the top competitors go through barrels trying to find a good one, quickly giving up on not so good barrels. We have more shooters in F/std using March scopes than in F Open. We still have F/std shooters using 2 or 3 guns for a major shoot. They will sometimes have a 223 for the short ranges and one or two 308s for the longs. (either a spare gun, or one which shoots better at longs and other at shorts).
This is mainly with the very top shooters and they have done their apprenticeship learning the ropes before they got this specialized. A new shooter can still go out and buy a Savage F class, (or converted Omark) rifle and be reasonably competitive in smaller shoots, but it is the nature of the beast for the shooters who outgrown their equipment to step up a notch.
While most people see no need to restrict progress or costs in F/std, many clubs in Australia now run a sporter/hunting/light (or similar named) class, restricting people to lower weights, genuine hunting profile barrels and hunting style stocks. This class gives people with hunting rifles or lower budgets a place to start.

 

[Nodak7mm]

The bottom line to be competetive it still requires doing ones homework, putting in the hours of practice, shooting skills, and good equipment....

Keep Highpower Rifle and F-class disciplines as they were intended, as target shooting sports at known distances. There are already tactical/sniper matches all over the country to participate in. But is you wish to shoot your tactical/sniper rifle in F-class, great. Just don't complain about the uneven playing field. And if you beat me, I will be the first to shake your hand and congratulate you on your shooting skills.


I dont care what you bring to shoot, whether its a stock 700 308 with a 10x scope and harris bipod. Or a full blown F/open custom. It still boils down to the above statement.

Shooting Skills...... Wind Reading...... Consistant & Repetative Positioning....... Trigger Control.......

The rifle & equipment does not make the Shooter!!!!!!!!!! Might look good and provide some false braggin rights, but unless you can shoot it...

The current F-class rules are more than sufficient to promote entry level shooters and full-blown open class... I have been following the game since its inception, shot in matches from TX to OK to IL with stock rifles & borrowed customs. I dont win becuase I cant shoot as good as the guys that do... I am learning and am improving.

This is my first full yr of F-class comp with a full blown custom rig that I have almost 5K invested in. I am still getting beat by guys with "less" equipment. Because they shoot more than I do and as a result they are better shooters than I !!! Doh!!!!!

Back in the 80's during my college yrs, I shot competitive 300 league Archery.. I shot decent equipment and was state ranked in the top 5-10 shooters in my class hunter-limited... I shot 30-40hrs a week, thats why I was good..... Bottom line, if you cannot put in the time to practice and learn, you will never will be good at it...

Rod....

Cortina... Dang we could have some fun... I like your humor.........

Scott... I feel your pain with the wannabes showing up, we get em too... The sad part is they typically have an IQ level equal to the price of their scope & a personaility equal to the quality..... Considering the location of your range, is there way you could do a "skills" check for all new shooters on the 50/100 yd line... Sad, but may be necessary in the best interest in the club....

 

[effendude]

Rod,
We do a skills check as part of the first night at 100 yards when we are checking equipment. (The shooters are evaluated also, they just don't know it). We simply can't tolerate people not willing to learn better skills. Talk of a "developmental league" only shooting back to 300 yards will probably be the next step.
Scott

 

[ordnancemarine]

This entire argument is the reason I no longer shoot matches at any local club... too many people that think they know whats best. I get so sick of these arguments about gear and equipment... I'll just stick to high power where I don't have to worry about some one bringing their money pit of a rifle to a match just to one up the guy to the right of him. Shooting has become inundated with participants relying on gear instead of talent in order to shoot. Please leave you billet steel fixed bi-pod, 30 inch barrel, and your Iphone with your ballistics program on it at home. Go grab an service rifle and a sling and come shoot with the men.

 

[LESLEY]

This entire argument is the reason I no longer shoot matches at any local club... too many people that think they know whats best. I get so sick of these arguments about gear and equipment... I'll just stick to high power where I don't have to worry about some one bringing their money pit of a rifle to a match just to one up the guy to the right of him. Shooting has become inundated with participants relying on gear instead of talent in order to shoot. Please leave you billet steel fixed bi-pod, 30 inch barrel, and your Iphone with your ballistics program on it at home. Go grab an service rifle and a sling and come shoot with the men.

This thread is about F/TR. What does service rifle have to do with this. So get your sling and service rifle and find a thread that is about it. What i dont understand is all the people posting here talking about shooting with sights. If you dont shoot F/TR this thread is not for you

 

[Taildrag15X]

I can't stand it any longer.....I'm one of the guys that some would complain about I'd guess, I use 2 different Rem. 700 actioned rifles, one F/TR gun (.223 Rem, 1-7", 28" Krieger) for Mid-Range and one for Long Range (.308 Win. 1-10", 32" 5C Broughton), although I built the .223 Rem. for both. They look alike, feel alike and pretty much shoot alike, which is why I built the latest (.308, with the action work by me) the way I did. Both use Harris 6"-9" bi-pods, Pod Paws and Pod Loks and an off the shelf protector rear bag filled with the best Black Beauty/#9 shot I could get........each sport 20-50X50 LRT Leupold/Premier Extra Fine Target Crosshair w/1/8 moa Dot and built in 10 MOA holdover to keep from having some fancy, smancy rail to reach 1K.

All in all I think it would be fruitless to open F/TR up to any caliber, I feel that the F/TR field is fine the way the Rules are, when I get bored I throw the .223Rem. in a Choate Varmint stock and grab my Caldwell BR widage Rest and shoot against the F-Open guys, having placed 3rd, 1 point & 2X's out of 1st place made them think about what they might be doing wrong.