Question: Is F/TR becoming too specialized?

[effendude]

BlueRidge,
I mean no disrespect to skilled tactical shooters, and you may be the exception to my experiences. I am not insinuating anything about skilled tactical shooters. The results show on the target. My range is within the city limits of a suburb of Minneapolis, and behind the hill which acts as a berm is high-end residential housing. The city regrets the development behind a sportman's club, but what is done is done. That said, every bullet fired on my range all the way out to 600 yards must have a known impact or the club may face closure. You show up with an unknown or wrong zero, you are removed from the line for the night after the first shot. Do it twice, I won't allow you to shoot on the KD range PERIOD. EVER.

After 5 years, and over 100 successful shooters going through the program, I feel like I can make some reasonably accurate assumptions of a shooter when they show up. Maybe even profiling, if you will. My program started with some basic classroom instruction; clicks, MOA, dry-firing, etc. and then every shooter verified equipment at 100 yards. I made up test grid targets that proved vertical tracking of at least 16MOA to make sure the scopes had adequate elevation to get to 600 yards. Then, over the next couple weeks, all shooting was at 300 yards. Many shooters were thrilled just to shoot beyond 100! After a couple weeks at 300, everyone showing adequate skills moved to 600 for the rest of the season. There was constant coaching and encouragement. Shooters range from casual hunters looking to practice all the way up to national level competitive shooters. Some keep score each week, and watch others scores; and some just shoot against themself trying to better their average score. Everyone is welcome as long as their equipment is safe and they show some skills, or the ability to learn.

My experience has shown that as a group, those that show up with: sniper bumper stickers, caps, or tee shirts, rifles in drag bags, sniper/ghillie capes, $99 tactical scopes not attached to rifles and painted scopes will be trouble. I have a few Minneapolis SWAT snipers who frequently shoot with us, and they are very good. The county's tactical unit trains on the range, and they are great guys, and all marksman to a man.

My next business venture will be to sell "Instant Sniper in a Box" kits. $300 rifle, $99 illuminated scope with cool knobs that don't function, tactical rings, a drag bag, surplus corrosive ammo, and best of all, really cool sniper tee shirts, caps and bumper stickers. They will sell to the poser crowd like hotcakes!

In closing, my suggestion is for you to start your own rifle competition. Find a big piece of wasteland 5 miles long where bullets can miss the berm and still not hurt anyone or anything. Invite everyone I described above to come out and shoot. Do this for a couple years and report back.
Scott

 

[cliffe]

6mmbrinnz, it would help to read the posts before making comments. no one is asking for a class where any caliber or setup is competitive. i guess if you don't have a good argument back just post jibberish....................
come on guys explain to me why when a guy would show up with a factory 243 varmint rifle and a tasco scope and lets say a harris bipod he belongs in f/open. you don't want him in f/tr because he would outshoot the custom 223s and 308?????????? that would be the day!!!!! let's not make any comparisons to a different sport. just answer this ONE QUESTION with an intelligent answer, so this leaves out 6mmbrinnz ;D ;D cliffe

 

[Steve Blair]

Cliffe,

We have several members that shoot rifles in F-T/R or tactical configuration but are chambered in cartridges like .260 Remington, 6.5X47L, etc. They shoot in F-Class and compete against the F-Open rifles. I have never heard any of them complain about unfairness. In fact, some of them shoot quite well against the F-Open shooters. When we have a better attended match, like the Mid-Range Regional this past weekend, they are further down the list. They still don't complain. They just enjoy shooting and competition.

What is the specific problem that you see with the present rule set? Do you have a hunting rifle that you want to shoot in F-Class? If your rifle has a short barrel and is not up to competing at Long Range matches, shoot Mid-Range or 300 yard reduced matches. We shoot all of them in San Diego County and enjoy each for what they are. Every discipline has rules and F-Class, both TR and Open, are what they are. If that is unacceptable to you, look for another format that better meets your needs.

 

[CacheCropp]

I don't think anyone is complaining about fairness. I think Cliffe is just pointing out the obvious. There is a division that allows basically anything and a division restricted to 223/308 and bipod. That leaves a lot of room for another class that would appeal to a lot of shooters. It isn't about equipment cost either. It is just an open discussion about improvement. So don't get your hackles up. Right now F-T/R is already pretty accessible to your average hunter with a factory varmint barreled rifle.

This thread started as a question about the original intent of F-T/R. After listening very carefully to some very knowledgeable shooters, like Laurie, I think I understand F-T/R as an extension of Palma, where Palma Shooters could shoot their rifles with a scope. So this explains why no one thought about restricting barrel length, I think. It also could be viewed as a place where service rifle shooters could shoot some with a scope, for more enjoyment. Now that I understand F-T/R a little better, I started to think, does this still leave a void where a lot of shooters might enjoy F-class in more of a "Field" division. Face it, almost every hunter, soldier and policeman who shoots beyond 200 yards uses optics. A long range rifle competition that allows optics taps into a huge group of shooters.

So, right now, you simply say to these shooters, come on out with whatever you have and we'll teach you the long distance game. That's really is great. Eventually they are going to want to build a custom rifle to stay in the game, but if they really enjoy it, they probably will spend the money.

But what if there were a third class that said, bring your Varmint rig in 22-250, 243, 6mm Rem, whatever. And you'll be competing side by side with custom rifles in 6mm Dasher (whatever), limited to 26" barrel length, repeater actions and using the same field style bipod you are. Would that be a worthy improvement? Would it bring more people to F-Class? Wouldn't it be fun to have people competing with field ready rifles at 1000 yards. Like I stated before, just a few years ago, Brad Sauve won F-T/R with this kind of setup. I think it would be good to encourage it further.

 

[cliffe]

hi sleepygator, thanks for the kind post. all i was asking is why f/tr is only open to 223 and 308 and not more. i didn't realize it was that way so someone with a service rifle could put a scope on and shoot another class. i look at the weight limits and type of rest allowed and thought a factory style varmint rifle with a bipod would be a good starter rifle in that class for anyone, if it was open to more modern rounds such as 6mmbr or 260s or 243.who buys a varmint rifle in 308???!
ryanjay, I don't think anybody would show up at a f class shoot with a tasco scope and varmint rifle and expect to win, but I think if the guy next to him has a seb rest, 22lb rifle etc. he would wonder if he was in the right class he can shoot and still have fun and try to improve his score. cliffe

 

[fayettefatts]

BlueRidge:

I shoot F Class at two clubs in Pa. and one in Ohio regularly. I wish we had enough attendance to shoot just F/TR and F Open as separate classes.

I think another class is not out of the question, but, I very much doubt that it will bring more people into F Class. People are, in my opinion, either willing to try it or they're not. Lots of people I know say they would like to shoot, but for whatever reason competing against other shooters seems to turn them away. The ones that do start shooting don't seem to have a problem competing against other shooters with different equipment. They just enjoy shooting and the fellowship and keep coming back. Usually as their skills improve, so does their equipment.

As the rules are now pretty much everyone shooting a hunting rifle, service rifle, or varmint rifle has the opportunity to try F Class. Once enough shooters show the desire for a new class I'm sure it will happen. Get out and support your local clubs!!!!

 

[CacheCropp]

BlueRidge:

I shoot F Class at two clubs in Pa. and one in Ohio regularly. I wish we had enough attendance to shoot just F/TR and F Open as separate classes.

I think another class is not out of the question, but, I very much doubt that it will bring more people into F Class. People are, in my opinion, either willing to try it or they're not. Lots of people I know say they would like to shoot, but for whatever reason competing against other shooters seems to turn them away. The ones that do start shooting don't seem to have a problem competing against other shooters with different equipment. They just enjoy shooting and the fellowship and keep coming back. Usually as their skills improve, so does their equipment.

As the rules are now pretty much everyone shooting a hunting rifle, service rifle, or varmint rifle has the opportunity to try F Class. Once enough shooters show the desire for a new class I'm sure it will happen. Get out and support your local clubs!!!!

I hear what you're saying. In the end, most of the people who really wish to compete probably already are. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[gaintwist]

If you think people are buying their wins with expensive equipment you should get rid of the rest and scope. Come back to the original LR game of sling shooting an unsupported rifle with iron sights where the best shooter wins not the equipment.

 

[Erik Cortina]

come on guys explain to me why when a guy would show up with a factory 243 varmint rifle and a tasco scope and lets say a harris bipod he belongs in f/open. you don't want him in f/tr because he would outshoot the custom 223s and 308?????????? that would be the day!!!!! let's not make any comparisons to a different sport. just answer this ONE QUESTION with an intelligent answer, so this leaves out 6mmbrinnz ;D ;D cliffe

Because the rules say so! It's that simple!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Cliffe,

I see your point. Maybe we need a varmint rifle class... From my perspective as an F/TR shooter I see a problem with the 243, 260, 6mmbr in F/TR. All 3 of those cartridges have a serious ballistic advantage over almost anything I can throw downrange with a 223 or 308. In order to remain competetive, I would have to move to a new caliber. That would start another arms race.

I think the intent of F/TR was to stop the who-has-the-hottest-cartridge contest and bring things down a notch. Right now, I can get 2-3 years out of a 308 barrel. If I were doing the 243, for example, I would have already needed a new barrel this year.

While I understand your point about factory varmint rifles and less expensive scopes, trust me when I say that I've shot some of those things, and they can easily shoot inside of a competetive F/tr rifle at any range - assuming your factory rifle isn't a lemon.

To flesh out your ideas, maybe we should propose a class where everyone has to use a specific scope and bipod without modification. Then, they can throw a magazine fed rifle on top of it. Even with that, I think you would have to do some serious limiting on cartridges, etc. to keep it from becoming another version of F-Open that requires a $3000 rifle to be competetive. Just do me a favor and leave the muzzle brake at home. I shot a league this year that allowed them and I'm sure I've developed a tick from the concussion.

 

[LESLEY]

If you think people are buying their wins with expensive equipment you should get rid of the rest and scope. Come back to the original LR game of sling shooting an unsupported rifle with iron sights where the best shooter wins not the equipment.

Are you saying F/TR Shooters are not shooters.

 

[LESLEY]

6mmbrinnz, it would help to read the posts before making comments. no one is asking for a class where any caliber or setup is competitive. i guess if you don't have a good argument back just post jibberish....................
come on guys explain to me why when a guy would show up with a factory 243 varmint rifle and a tasco scope and lets say a harris bipod he belongs in f/open. you don't want him in f/tr because he would outshoot the custom 223s and 308?????????? that would be the day!!!!! let's not make any comparisons to a different sport. just answer this ONE QUESTION with an intelligent answer, so this leaves out 6mmbrinnz ;D ;D cliffe

Tell you what cliff bring your factory 243 with Tasco scope I WILL BEAT YOU SO BAD IT WILL BE FUNNY. With my F/TR gun. And it you want to open the door. I will shoot my 7MM SAUM it is under 16lbs. and ill still beat your 243. Why i dont work at a job my job is to shoot and to get or build the best guns. So will the regular working guy win a big match yes every now and then. But the Pro shooter will win more. why all they have to do is shoot and money is not a factor. So Cliffe where will we meet and shoot.

 

[LESLEY]

If you dont like the F/TR rules change them or shoot something else

 

[LESLEY]

hi sleepygator, thanks for the kind post. all i was asking is why f/tr is only open to 223 and 308 and not more. i didn't realize it was that way so someone with a service rifle could put a scope on and shoot another class. i look at the weight limits and type of rest allowed and thought a factory style varmint rifle with a bipod would be a good starter rifle in that class for anyone, if it was open to more modern rounds such as 6mmbr or 260s or 243.who buys a varmint rifle in 308???!
ryanjay, I don't think anybody would show up at a f class shoot with a tasco scope and varmint rifle and expect to win, but I think if the guy next to him has a seb rest, 22lb rifle etc. he would wonder if he was in the right class he can shoot and still have fun and try to improve his score. cliffe

Its not a varmint rifle cass

 

[LESLEY]

If you think people are buying their wins with expensive equipment you should get rid of the rest and scope. Come back to the original LR game of sling shooting an unsupported rifle with iron sights where the best shooter wins not the equipment.

Lets give you a factory 10 Twist 308. And a shooter with equal skills a full blown custom with a 13 twist with Williams sights. You will have an old set of Lymans. Who will win. The sling shooters do the same as F/TR. They shoot custom guns with sights that cost as much as some guns do. So dont sit there talking like your an almighty sight shooter. They do the same thing. Get the best equipment they can. When was the last time a factory gun Made the USA palma team. So gaintwist crawl back in your hole ok.

 

[LESLEY]

I can do this all day. Shooting is a game we play to win. If a certain peice of equipment will help us win we will use it. I does not matter if its Palma F/TR or F/OPEN we will all tyr to win. To win with todays compition you need the best eqiupment

 

[LESLEY]

Whos next

 

[Erik Cortina]

Looks like the same guys that object the Sinclair bipods are in favor or shooting more efficient cartridges.

You object to the bipods because you say they offer and advantage, wouldn't a more efficient cartridge offer a bigger advantage?

Lastly, BLueRidge, I asked you what discipline do you shoot and what equipment do you use? Why can't you answer those questions?

 

[LESLEY]

Eric i say lets give them a gun and shoot against Sierra Scott

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik i say lets give them a gun and shoot against Sierra Scott

Common, you know that wouldn't be fair, not because she is a better shot, but because she has a special bipod and a high magnification scope!