Question: Is F/TR becoming too specialized?

[Keith Glasscock]

I can't stand it any longer.....I'm one of the guys that some would complain about I'd guess, I use 2 different Rem. 700 actioned rifles, one F/TR gun (.223 Rem, 1-7", 28" Krieger) for Mid-Range and one for Long Range (.308 Win. 1-10", 32" 5C Broughton), although I built the .223 Rem. for both. They look alike, feel alike and pretty much shoot alike, which is why I built the latest (.308, with the action work by me) the way I did. Both use Harris 6"-9" bi-pods, Pod Paws and Pod Loks and an off the shelf protector rear bag filled with the best Black Beauty/#9 shot I could get........each sport 20-50X50 LRT Leupold/Premier Extra Fine Target Crosshair w/1/8 moa Dot and built in 10 MOA holdover to keep from having some fancy, smancy rail to reach 1K.

All in all I think it would be fruitless to open F/TR up to any caliber, I feel that the F/TR field is fine the way the Rules are, when I get bored I throw the .223Rem. in a Choate Varmint stock and grab my Caldwell BR widage Rest and shoot against the F-Open guys, having placed 3rd, 1 point & 2X's out of 1st place made them think about what they might be doing wrong.

That is why F/TR is so much fun! The shooter that makes the least mistakes wins! I don't know how else to say this - Mike's rifles are probably really nice, but driven by a different shooter, they would be sub-standard. Mike knows his equipment - how hot he can get the barrels, what the impact point does during a string, and when to favor the let-offs. Without an outstanding shooter, the equipment can't win anything.

Why am I beating a dead horse?????

BTW, Mike what kind of velocities are you getting out of your 223? Are you shooting the Berger 90gr VLD? Thanks!

 

[Flouncer]

At Sac Valley 2 weeks ago Lane B with his 308 palma rifle with iron sights won the Tactical class just to show them how its done ;D at a 8, 9 1k match

yeah, but he hasn't brought any doughnuts for a long long time, and he is overdue.

 

[GermanS1]

This thread has been very interesting (I just found it) and as a new participant in F-TR after 40 years of sling shooting, I have to say that I'm truly enjoying both the competition and this thread.

The big disconnect for a lot of the earlier posters in the thread is that they look at a particular discipline (F-TR in this case) as a place to use their favorite rifle and seek accomodation. In reality, any discipline is best viewed as a place in which to compete and then one should determine what equipment is required to compete effectively.

I have a pair of New Balance sneakers, Levis, I'm 51 and 40 pounds overweight. I don't think that the sanctioning body of track and field is about to create a FUFFOF (fat, unfit, fity, old fart) class just so I can get a plastic trophy. If I want to run (and I don't) then I'd better get fit and get the right shorts and shoes. It's about the competition, not about the equipment. The act of competing is what defines what we do and the desire to compete is what brings out those who come and the lack of it is what keeps the others on the couch watching someone else compete on TV.

When I began shooting F-TR a few months ago, I took out my old Palma rifle, added a Leupold BR24 and bought the best bipod I could find (Canadian made). My objective was to have first class equipment so that I could focus on wind reading because from long experience, I know that's what wins matches. I've since picked up a Leupold 36 power scope but am not yet sure that it's any real advantage (though it is no disadvantage either).

My point is that F-TR equipment rules exist to create a reasonably level field upon which we can exercise our competitive instincts. Hard core competitors view the required equipment in the same manner that an olympic swimmer regards his suit: it needs to keep me from being at a disadvantage, but I have to do all the hard work once I jump in the pool.

 

[Steve Blair]

As an addendum to German's post: That "old Palma rifle" and German's wind reading ability was enough for a pending national record. He shot a 444-25X Mid-Range course at Camp Pendleton two weeks ago.

It was a little rude to show up the hosts but still fine shooting.

 

[1000yardstare]

That is how F Class got started 15 or so years ago, "an old Palma rifle". Took off the iron sights and put on a scope. Oops, someone didn`t like the mention of iron sights??

As for the evolution of F/TR equipment, it is inevitable. The human brain is hardwired to look for the "edge". Our caveman ancestors outlived ice ages and modern athletes keep setting new Olympic records because our species keeps looking for the "edge".

No comparison between Indy cars in the 1920s and 2010s, or between football equipment in the 1920s or 2010s, or between a house in the 1920s and 2010s, or between a stove in the 1920s and 2010s. Equipment and machinery and household items keep evolving because the human brain cannot tolerate the status quo. Always looking for the "edge".

Who knows what F/TR equipment will look like 10 years from now? Humans being what they are, it will probably have gone through several changes.

Some will not accept the changes. But then I can remember old Palma shooters quiting the sport in the 1990s because the Canadian Army would no longer supply us with `free` ammo. They had to learn to reload and actually spend their own money on components. I can still feel their angst 15 years later. But I am still shooting and enjoying myself.

Bill

 

[CacheCropp]

While most people see no need to restrict progress or costs in F/std, many clubs in Australia now run a sporter/hunting/light (or similar named) class, restricting people to lower weights, genuine hunting profile barrels and hunting style stocks. This class gives people with hunting rifles or lower budgets a place to start.

Having a sporter/light type class seems a great idea to me since F-T/R has become more specialized. Do these classes attract many new shooters in Australia?

As for the evolution of F/TR equipment, it is inevitable. The human brain is hardwired to look for the "edge". Our caveman ancestors outlived ice ages and modern athletes keep setting new Olympic records because our species keeps looking for the "edge".

No comparison between Indy cars in the 1920s and 2010s, or between football equipment in the 1920s or 2010s, or between a house in the 1920s and 2010s, or between a stove in the 1920s and 2010s. Equipment and machinery and household items keep evolving because the human brain cannot tolerate the status quo. Always looking for the "edge".

I agree with you about always looking for an "edge". But I don't think you can compare sports directly to regular society. In society we make changes to products like cars because progress is good for society in general. There is no real detriment to making a car that is safer or more efficient. However, in a competition, there is a set of rules. The rules are there specifically to control the integrity of the game. We wouldn't want NFL QB's using a mechanical device to throw the football farther and faster would we? How about a golfer who uses a computer aiming device? Or even a golfer who started using a driver that was 6" longer, or a golf ball that goes 100 yards farther? In fact, those things already exist in golf and the PGA has rules to ensure no one uses them for an unfair advantage. It's not that the PGA is against progress. They are controlling the integrity of a great sport with a fine history. That is the basis for the discussion here. What is best for the integrity of the sport.
I've learned a lot already from some of the responses on here.

 

[Erik Cortina]

BlueRidge,

What you are saying is that having those kinds of devices in Golf or the NFL would be breaking the rules, but who in F-T/R is breaking the rules with the equipment they use?

 

[CacheCropp]

BlueRidge,

What you are saying is that having those kinds of devices in Golf or the NFL would be breaking the rules, but who in F-T/R is breaking the rules with the equipment they use?

No one. Didn't say anyone was breaking rules. Just saying you can't compare progress in regular products to progress in sports. Sports limit progress to maintain integrity. Each sport has to decide for itself what they are trying to accomplish, then keep rules for that purpose. If F-Open wanted to truly push the limits of accuracy at the greatest distance possible, they would allow 50 BMG's. But they don't.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If F-Open wanted to truly push the limits of accuracy at the greatest distance possible, they would allow 50 BMG's. But they don't.

BlueRidge, that would be a totally different sport! I think that is the problem here, you keep trying to make the sport into something that is not!

F-Class is what it is, you "run what you brung" as long as it's within the rules, if you happen to bring a fart to a shit fight that's your problem, not anyone else's!

 

[FroggyOne2]

I have read this whole thing to this point and just could not help but totally laugh! It is what is and it shouldn't anymore than that. Accept it.

 

[CacheCropp]

Yeah okay. That's fine. I'm pretty much done talking about it anyway. I'll just say this, not once have I complained about fairness. Some of you can't seem to get that out of your head and are intent on arguing about it. IT IS NOT ABOUT FAIRNESS : It isn't even really about changing F-T/R. It's just a discussion. Some people are willing to discuss, offer opinion and listen to others. from those people I've learned a lot.

The discussion is really about, is there a place in F-Class for a competition where shooters are limited to field style rifles. A rifle that could be carried into the field and used. Most shooting competitions are born out of a desire for people to use real world guns in a competition that mirrors real world situations to determine who might be best in those situations. We can't test those skills to see who would be the best in a police shootout against 4 criminals in a convenience store. But IDPA comes close. We can't see who is best at shooting Pheasant and Quail every weekend in every locale, but skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays come pretty close. That's all this is. An open discussion about whether F-class could offer something so people might try F-class with a 24-26" barreled rifle with field bipod at longer ranges than most people have access to.

Some in this discussion have said, "No, not many of these people with these types of rifles would show up or compete seriously."

Some have said, "Yes, this might be a good idea or attract more shooters or both."

One gentleman says they already do this in Australia.

Some of you have said the discussion is ridiculous and that F-T/R should not change. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with F-T/R the way it is. Like has been stated several times, this has really become more about starting a separate class. F-T/R was created by those seeking to change or improve on what was available. It seems ironic that those people most against change are at the same time defending the changes that brought F-T/R to where it is. ???

As for me, I have shot Highpower, IDPA, Sporting Clays. I recently had a nice rifle built, 308, and I intend to use it to become a better shooter. Not really worried about competing to win anything. If I shoot F-T/R I seriously doubt I'll build a competition specific rifle, but you never know. in fact, I had an F-open specific rifle a few years ago and sold it without ever competing. Just not into pure bench shooting I guess. I am more interested in shooting at unknown distance targets because that seems to be the most challenging and fun to me. My wife and I bought our first house recently and she is due to give birth to our 2nd in 4 weeks. Once she delivers and I finish building a new reloading bench, I intend to shoot some F-T/R for fun. I've got one load with Berger 185 LRBT's that averages .200-.250 at 100yds and .750-.950 at 300. So I really am interested to see what I can do at a 1000. I want to try the new 168 hybrid and some JLK 180's and hopefully have my act together by spring. Thanks.

 

[Taildrag15X]

If I shoot F-T/R I seriously doubt I'll build a competition specific rifle, but you never know. in fact, I had an F-open specific rifle a few years ago and sold it without ever competing.

Just not into pure bench shooting I guess.

Another reason that there is so much confusion about F-Class..........It's not BENCHREST or BENCH SHOOTING.

Some new guy showed up at one of our NRA High Power Prone & F-Class Matches with a full blown Remington 700 Benchrest rifle in .223 Rem. chamber, in his words, F/TR rifle....no bi-pod, no ground mat, not even a clue that the Sinclair Rest was not allowed cause he "read it on the internet" that you shoot F-Class from a bench and saw pictures posted of it.

 

[Steve Blair]

An open discussion about whether F-class could offer something so people might try F-class with a 24-26" barreled rifle with field bipod at longer ranges than most people have access to.

We have people come out regularly with rifles as you describe. They usually find that they do not have the velocity to seriously compete at 1000 yards but they can often compete reasonably well at 600. I shot a 26" barrel custom tactical bolt gun in a 2 X 1000 match and did fairly well. I was first in F-T/R, only the open guys scored higher. But, when people try using a 20-22" barrel box-stock Remington, they often have trouble staying on paper at 1000.

in fact, I had an F-open specific rifle a few years ago and sold it without ever competing. Just not into pure bench shooting I guess.

As Mike said, F-Class, even F-Open, is not Benchrest. We shoot from prone, a very different experience from shooting at a bench. We shoot 15 or 20 shot strings with sighters. Each shot is followed by pit service to mark the target. This means that every shot is a new situation. There is no "machine gun" shooting in High Power. In most matches, each participant must score and provide pit service in addition to shooting. At our gun club, all hands help set up and tear down the range before and after matches. There is no time between relays to load ammunition, so all ammunition is assembled before the match.

For the above reasons and more that I cannot remember now, F-Class is very different from any Benchrest discipline.

 

[CacheCropp]

You guys crack me up. You manage to take the least significant thing I said and wrap it around the axle. ;D I just meant I wasn't into shooting overly heavy rifles off mechanical rests. Whether it is done prone, from a bench or a treehouse, it just doesn't have much appeal to me. To each his own.

 

[mattt]

Blueridge this horse is done give it up. F/tr is fine

 

[FroggyOne2]

But, when people try using a 20-22" barrel box-stock Remington, they often have trouble staying on paper at 1000.

Try tell that to the guys over on the hide, I sometimes pull my hair out when I read some of the stuff I see them say. Wait, that might be the reason I don't have much hair anymore!

 

[FroggyOne2]

Whether it is done prone, from a bench or a treehouse, it just doesn't have much appeal to me.

Then why is that your suggesting a form of subclass to F/TR when it doesn't have much appeal to you?

 

[fayettefatts]

Blueridge:

Here is the deal. The "field style rifles" you talk about are legal to use in F class. What you have to do is GO TO A MATCH and try it! You may be more of a contender and enjoy it more that you think!!!!!!!

 

[Steve Blair]

Well....I'm TORQUED.. :-\ ..to see NRA HP turn into F/TR and F Open!! But since some folks like the 'easy way' of not having to learn how to stand up on their hind feet and shoot offhand....it was bound to occur!! An 'old phart' game also for folks what's blind!! ;D :-\

[br]
We still shoot XTC at Camp Pendleton. I shoot F-Class in the prone matches and the Match Rifle, Palma and SR folks shoot position and prone. There really is no conflict between the two. We freely exchange loading info and get along quite well. [br]
http://www.smgunclub.org/

 

[Steve Blair]

Wow! You really had to dig deep to pull this thread up! ???

[br]
I just saw Mr. Mulhern's post and responded. Didn't realize it was approaching a second birthday.