Question for those who don't brush

[dreever]

For those of you who don't brush, how do you get the black powder streaks out? I can let it sit overnight, have tried wipe out, and other solvents and still after many patches i still get black streaks. Brushing with nylon brush works ok, but the only sure way I've found is with a bronze brush.

So how do you guys get the bore clean that only white patches come out??????

Danny

 

[shootsanything]

Dan,
Depends on my barrel..
My match barrels never see a brush and don't seem to need them. My factory and military barrels are rougher and need a little brush, and in that case I use bronze.

I would try some ISSO or JB before I would try a brush. You may find that there is a small rough spot that could be touched up and the streaks might not come back.

When I was young I didn't clean as much as I do now - read once a year if the gun was lucky. Took a long time to get all that carbon and copper out once I learned how to clean propoerly. My 6.5x55 I treated like a new barrel and broke it in properly and now have no trouble cleaning it.

It sounds to me as if you have carbon trapped in the corners that is hard to gte out - I would let the barrel tell me what it needs, and maybe it needs a brush. I really would try some paste first.

 

[Chuckhunter]

Danny, This is kind of a case of the pendulum swinging to far in the other direction. Back in my score shooting days, we brushed between each relay (approx. 8-10 shots) and the group shooters did also. Now some guys shoot an entire match without cleaning. I think you just have to do whats best for your barrel and if that means a few passes with a bronze brush to get out the carbon, do it. I personally have adopted a cleaning procedure using Wipe Out and accelerator and I don't always get to bare metal. After appox. 100 rounds I bore scope the barrel and if there is any buildup of carbon, I use Iosso and then clean with butches to remove the Iosso, if necessary (which it usually isn't), I'll repeat. Over the years I've watched shooters like, Tony Boyer, Lester Bruno, Gary O'cock, etc. scrub the barrels and then go shoot teeny, tiny little holes with no problem. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a bronze brush used in moderation will never harm your barrel and in fact will probably extend it's peak accuracy. I personally feel that as long as you have a proper fitting bore guide and a brush that has a closed loop and you pay attention to keeping your rod straight, you should not encounter any problems.

 

[BoydAllen]

I agree with Chuckhunter.

 

[Rust]

I believe that some of what we commonly refer to as "carbon fouling" also includes some of the deterent coatings and some powders under some conditions leave an exceptionally stubborn fouling.

The surface finish of the bore has an effect also. A smoothly finished lapped bore fouls less and cleans faster, while worn or fire crazed bore and factory bores tend to accumulate more fouling because there are tooling marks or cracking to hold the fouling.

There are fairly stiff bristle nylon brushes which might help in some cases, and bronze brushes for more stubborn fouling. IMO neither will do any noticable harm to a factory barrel. Use of JBs or Iosso will remove any surface fouling, but in a barrel with heavy tool marks or a lot of heat crazing it will take cleaning fluids to leach out the fouling. I figure in that case as long as the surface fouling is gone leave it at that and oil down the bore if the rifle is going to be put up.

In a lapped match barrel, it all depends on the chambering. If it's something like a 6.5 X 284 where the barrel just plain and simple isn't going to last very long, a brush or paste won't contribute any significant wear or damage. On something like a .223 or .308 where barrel life is in the thousands of rounds, I will occasionally use paste if warranted. But generally find that chemicals will work fine until the barrel starts to heat craze.

Since I have a bore scope, the condition of the barrel can be monitored. I have been known to use the "Final Finish" method sparingly, which consists of firing bullets embedded with a non-embedding polishing compound in some rifles, not all of them. And I only use the finest grit. It is easy to screw this up so I wouldn't recommend trying it for the first time in a top notch barrel. And note that this method is not meant to remove any fouling, but to smooth out the surface finish giving fouling less to grab on to.

I've found that the same method can help some factory barrels which are bad foulers out of the box and it hasn't hurt accuracy in the least. Useful as a less expensive alternative to just replacing the barrel if you are otherwise satisfied with the performance of the barrel.

 

[dreever]

I had tried my best to join the "No Brushing" bandwagon, but never could get the bore squeaky clean without brushing somewhat.
In fact I once tried an experiment in one of my custom barrels by using many, and I do mean many solvent soaked and dry patches till I had pretty much eliminated all but some fairly faint black streaks. i then ran a solvent soaked bronze brush through the bore and guess what? Yep, a whole lot more black came out, just after one pass of the bronze brush.
After that I sort of figured if when cleaning if I just use one pass or two of the brush unscrewing it at the muzzle it might help get those stubbron black streaks out.
Still, some never brush and don't seem to have a problem. paul our moderator is one. He claims his Pac Nor barrel has never seen a brush only using Whipe Out for cleaning. I just can't get those results myself.

Danny

 

[fdshuster]

Danny: Yes, I also tried several of the liquid solvents that claim to remove carbon, and with "before and after" scoping with my "Hawkeye", saw that essentially they do not work as advertised. The most effective method I've used, and have demonstrated to others, is coating the bore with JB (original blue label) applied on a patch, then 10 to 20 push strokes, chamber to muzzle, with a snug fitting bronze brush. That method removes all of the carbon fouling, so the hand lapped Shilen, Hart and Krieger barrels look as new. Most of my barrels require the JB method about every 150 to 200 rounds to keep it (the carbon) under control. Powder fouling is the easiest to remove. I think spit on a patch would do it. Copper will come out with some soak time, using "Butch's"), but the carbon is the toughest to remove-- it's almost like a plated surface in the bore, especially difficult to remove in the corners, and that's where the bronze brush does the job. Many methods & products out there, and I understand others also will have success by their methods, but without a borescope how do you really know?

 

[whiskey08]

ive got a krieger barrel, ive tried a few different solvents and right now im using the boretech carbon solvent. I have not been able to remove all the carbon without a wire brush. its taking me a routine of two wet patches and a hard brushing three sets of times to get the carbon out. My buddy on the other hand has a remington barrel, doesnt use a brush runs a few patches and swears the carbons out.

 

[BoydAllen]

Here's the deal. The most accurate CF shooters in the world (short range CF Benchrest) typically use bronze brushes, and do not unscrew them at the muzzle. In all of this I read of shooters using multitudes of patches, as if there is no risk in this. Even among Benchrest shooters, many have inferior bore guides and lousy rod technique. This combination increases the chance of unwanted throat and crown wear, by the rod, even if no brush is used. Generally, if you want to save your barrel by using a different cleaning technique, and you clean at home, using Wipe Out foam twice, once in for an hour, followed by overnight, will get you close, and the rest of the trip can be completed by using a bronze brush ( after patching out the Wipe Out) and something like Butches, to remove a slight residue of powder fouling. This, using the best available bore guide, one that has a plug or tube that stays on the rod, and being careful with your rod technique will finish the package.

Several years back, I interviewed a journeymen Benchrest shooter who had shot a sub .2 200 yard group at 200 yards, under the most miserable conditions of mirage and switchy light wind you can imagine. In a sport where many figure the life of a Benchrest barrel to be around 1200 rounds, before accuracy falls off, he was shooting one that had over 2200 rounds on it, cleaning between every group, with a bronze brush, that was pulled back through the bore. He attributed his extended barrel life to the fact that he had been shooting moly coated bullets since the process had first been publicized, including applying a carnuba wax coating.

For my own cleaning routine, I have switched to short stroking the second through fourth or fifth patch, pausing at the throat for a number of cycles, and being very attentive as the jag approaches the muzzle. With 133, and a reasonable round count this gets most of the fouling out. After that I switch to a bronze brush for perhaps 10 cycles, being careful as the brush emerges to slow way down and reverse immediately as the brush clears. I follow this with a couple of wet patches to remove bristle particles and let the barrel sit for 20 minutes while I reload. At this point I run a wet patch, and if it passes muster, 3-4 dry patches, dry the chamber, wipe the muzzle, lightly lube the rear surface of the lugs, and a little heavier application to the cocking cam. Every time I remove a rod from a bore, before I case it, I wipe it off.

 

[fdshuster]

whiskey08: I've had several friends tell me that there was no carbon in their bore, it was as clean as possible. When we went into it with the borescope, it looked like a sewer pipe. How does your buddy verify there is no carbon in the bore? Before I got the borescope, over 4 years ago, I too thought I was getting my barrels clean. I had a rude awakening! From an article by Gordy Gritters, page 45, April 2010 issue of "Varmint Hunter" magazine, " I had been a professional gunsmith for a number of years already by that time and really thought I knew what I was doing in getting rifle bores clean. Boy, was I wrong! I would "clean" a barrel, then look at it with a borescope and still see all kinds of fouling in the bore".

 

[whiskey08]

I dont believe for a second there is not carbon there, i bet it does look like a sewer pipe. He's thinking cuz his patches are clean the bore is clean. He's coming over to shoot in a week, im gonna see if he'll let me run a brush through it.

I tried today unsucsessfuly to get carbon out with nylon brush. Patches kept coming out with carbon. I brushed it hard with wire brush and two patches and no more carbon.

 

[fdshuster]

whiskey08: If there is carbon in a bore, it's all but impossible to see with the naked eye. I find the greatest concentration of carbon fouling begins about 4" to 5" in front of the throat for a distance of about 6" to 7". I've never seen it close enough to the muzzle to be able to see it from that end. As you may have guessed, a clean patch tells you nothing. Carbon will not leave any traces on the patch like the copper fouling will. I also tried nylon brushes with dismal results. I believe you need the scrapping combination with a good fitting bronze brush with some type of paste. One of our local well known gunsmiths (and benchrest competition winner) believes in and uses IOSSO, which I also think is as good or better (?) than JB.

 

[1shot]

Many of the posters have said things that I have found to be valid and true with several barrels in different calibers, including factory barrels. I am currently am or have shot .223 6XC, 6mmSX, 6AR, 6.5x47, 6.5x284 and 308. Barrel Mfg. are Hart, Broughton, Bartlien, Krieger, Shilen and Remington. The one common factor that I have seen in all my barrels is after proper break-in, I try and get a couple of wet patches of Butches down the tube as soon as I get home from the match. If I wait until the next evening because of a long drive, need to get to bed for work tomorrow, (read tired) etc. All of the barrels take longer to clean. It’s like the carbon has had a chance to “set-up” so to speak. I rarely use a brush, since I started getting the Butches in ASAP.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd

 

[fdshuster]

lloyd; Absolutely agree with you! Weather and time permitting I usually take cleaning equipment with me to the range, and while maybe not doing a complete cleaning, at least wet down the bore with "Butch's" and give it a few strokes with a brush. It does seem to clean up easier then. I believe this "hardening" can be verified by the carbon that is deposited on the case neck after firing. If I take the time to wipe it off immediatly, (couple drops of Butch's on a rag), it will all come off. If I let it sit 'til ready for reloading it's very difficult to remove.

 

[SS427]

What brand(s) of wire brushes do you guys recommend? I've always been fearful of using them, but sounds like that is unfounded. I'm going to give it a try in place of my usual nylon brushes. I don't have a bore scope so I have no idea if my cleaning routine gets all the crud out. My only guide is if the accuracy returns after cleaning, in in all cases that has been the case with the routine I currently use. Be interesting if with bronze brushes the accuracy is improved.

Frank, I've heard using solvents on brass can weaken the brass??? Any truth to that?

 

[BoydAllen]

Look around on some of the websites of companies that cater to Benchrest. Sinclair, Bruno, Russ Haydon, buy them by the dozen with a brass core that is looped at the end. When you are finished with that brush for a session, pour a little alcohol over it to clean and get rid of the copper solvent.

 

[fdshuster]

Otter: I like and use the Sinclair brushes and buy them in the 12 packs. My only complaint with them is they are frequently "crooked". Screw them on your cleaning rod and it becomes obvious how "non-straight" some of them are. I've subjected my brass to quick wipe downs with "Shooters Choice", "Hoppe's #9", and "Butches", and to remove the hard, caked-on carbon fouling on the case necks, I've been using Brasso and a newly discovered brass polish: "Wrights Brass Polish". Yes, I've heard talk that doing that can damage the brass, but, I've been using Brasso on 120 Lapua 220 Russian/6ppc brass cases since 1998, when my first 6ppc was built. The brass actually has outlasted the Shilen barrel. it had to be set-back and re-chambered because of fire-cracking in front of the chamber at 2410 rounds fired. The original 120 brass cases each fired from 28 to 31 times is still going strong, and have never thrown one away. I do like to keep the necks clean: I think I can better control neck diameters with the bushing working on a "clean" surface. Also I would be better able to see the beginning if a split or other defect than if the neck were "black" with dirt. Just my way of doing "things". Boyd: Ditto on your suggestion of cleaning the brushes. And to get "double-use" out of them, when a 6mm brush gets a little lose, it's then used for 22 cal. Guess I'm just cheap that way.

 

[kjcpoint]

In the last 4 weeks I have been testing some different cleaning products in our shop. We sell alot of these products so i try them all. Some factory and custom barrels alike. nylon,bronze and the list. Butches,hoppes,jb,montana,sweets,m pro series,wipe out,shooters choice,bore tech eliminator,iosso,kg industries,kroil. All checked before and after with the hawkeye.
My result:
Kg1 for carbon
kg12 for copper and denatured alcohol
This stuff works.

 

[SS427]

Boyd and Frank - Thanks for the suggestions. I looked and Sinclair and Bruno's sell their own brushes rather than Montana Extreme, Tipton or other brands. I order from both on a regular basis, so next time I will include a few dozen bronze brushes. Looks like Bruno's has better prices.

I had some Winchester necks that split on the first firing, and when I talked to my gunsmith as to why, the first thing he asked was did I clean them with barrel cleaning solvent. He said that would make the brass brittle. Based on your experience Frank, I'm not so sure that was accurate info. Right now I clean my necks at the range right after I fire them with a rag soaked with Simple Green, which gets most the carbon off. When I prep brass for reloading, I've used 0000 steel wool, which works but the stuff gets all over the place. I've tried Krazy Cloth with good results, and the old stand by Nevr Dull. If I don't clean them up, I get irregular readings when measuring runout.

 

[fdshuster]

kjcpoint: Based on your findings for carbon removal, and especially since you are using a borescope, (lends a lot of credibility to your results), I'll pickup KG-1 and give it a try for carbon removal. Using JB is a lot of work, usually taking about 30 to 45 minutes to do a complete cleanup. Will follow the directions unless you can suggest a better way. I also tried "Bore Tech Eliminator", and was greatly disappointed. Use their cleaning rods, like them a lot, so thought I'd give their solvent a try. Not only did it not do anything with the carbon, but it left a slimy residue on everything it came in contact with. Otter: I won't say that it can't happen, but for new brass to neck split after one firing, and blame solvent as the cause, is a little difficult for me to agree with. When cleaning 50,60 or more cases, as I do after firing 223's in my AR-15's for the NRA HiPower matches I tumble clean with dry corn cob media using a Lyman 1200. Then wipe the necks with Brasso or Wright's, leaving them wet and putting them into another tumbler (Frankford Arsenal) to tumble for about an hour. They come out looking like gold. For 6ppc,6BR,22BR,222 Rem, etc. where only 20 or 30 cases are involved hand cleaning each one requires little time. Also tried 0000 steel wool but was afraid of the tiny pieces of steel getting into the sizer die and scratching/ damaging the die. I've also been hand polishing/cleaning my Lapua 6BR necks, some now having 26 to 28 loadings, and as with the 6ppc brass, have never thrown away a single case for any reason. I keep a number count on each batch or box of brass, so know exactly how many times they have been loaded & fired. Some (or all?) of these polishing products are really tough on the skin (broken fingernails, split skin, etc), so I always wear the thin medical exam gloves.