Question for 220 Swift owners/reloaders

[jxb]

If you don't mind, can you please measure your fired 220 Swift cases diameter (.200 forward of the bolt face or base of case) and post the size. I'm trying to determine what's normal expansion at this location for most rifles. Please note whether this is a factory barrel or not. The brand doesn't matter, I'm just wondering how they compare to SAAMI specs and what I'm seeing on two of mine with factory barrels.

Thanks in advance to everyone that posts their info.

 

[Chuckhunter]

My Hart barreled Ruger 77 with tang safety, firing Winchester Brass Mic's .444 @ the .200 line as did the original factory barrel.

 

[jxb]

My Hart barreled Ruger 77 with tang safety, firing Winchester Brass Mic's .444 @ the .200 line as did the original factory barrel.

Thanks for the measurement, hopefully others will provide theirs. I have two, one is .444 and the other .445 and given that my largest new brass or loaded rounds are .441 this seemed like quite a bit. They appear to be within SAAMI specs, just seems like a lot of expansion at that location.

Hornady new brass and factory unfired rounds are .440
Norma new brass are .441
Remington factory unfired rounds are .4385

I noticed this because I see almost none on my other calibers and I have three 22-250. I'm used to the flow forward on the Swift and mitigating that, but now I'm thinking when I have them rebarrelled maybe talk to my smith about getting a custom reamer so we can tighten this up to min or what's needed for the case sizes being produced. SAAMI appears to show .0109 spread (min case to max chamber at .200).

 

[Gary in MD]

I measured 5 cases and I’m getting about the same, maybe - .4435”

 

[Chuckhunter]

Thanks for the measurement, hopefully others will provide theirs. I have two, one is .444 and the other .445 and given that my largest new brass or loaded rounds are .441 this seemed like quite a bit. They appear to be within SAAMI specs, just seems like a lot of expansion at that location.

Hornady new brass and factory unfired rounds are .440
Norma new brass are .441
Remington factory unfired rounds are .4385

I noticed this because I see almost none on my other calibers and I have three 22-250. I'm used to the flow forward on the Swift and mitigating that, but now I'm thinking when I have them rebarrelled maybe talk to my smith about getting a custom reamer so we can tighten this up to min or what's needed for the case sizes being produced. SAAMI appears to show .0109 spread (min case to max chamber at .200).

If memory serves me correctly, the sammi reamer print shows .445 generally there is some spring back after firing. My loaded rounds measure .243 and chamber very easily. This means my cases are being worked .002 or less which means the brass should last a long time, especially if I anneal them.

 

[AckleymanII]

Cases lasting a long time...hummm....

Brass flow into the neck is a deal killer on the Swift, and this gets complicated.

ON a re barrel, a Swift improved is a Monster, I hunted with a guy that had a Swift improved with a 12 twist Hart barrel with short freebore, who shot the 60g Berger at the same speed I was shooting a 55g sierra in my Ruger 77s and Savage 112Js. On my re-rebarrel, I wimped out with a 22/250 AI, but the Swift AI is one of those cartridges on my bucket list. The Swift brass is very strong, and when you AI the Swift case, you have a Monster of a varmint rifle. The Swift Improved will rival the 22/243 AI and the the Middlestead in terms of speed with less powder.

When loading up the Swift brass, realize that there is a tremendous amount of difference between the Norma and Winchester brands. I stuck with Winchester for the win.

When I had trimmed my Swift brass 5 times, the next time it needed trimming, it got thrown in the trash. I did establish what the chamber length was in my rifle, and it was usually over book max length. I trimmed when Length got to the max, never before.

 

[Webster]

If you don't mind, can you please measure your fired 220 Swift cases diameter (.200 forward of the bolt face or base of case) and post the size. I'm trying to determine what's normal expansion at this location for most rifles. Please note whether this is a factory barrel or not. The brand doesn't matter, I'm just wondering how they compare to SAAMI specs and what I'm seeing on two of mine with factory barrels.

Thanks in advance to everyone that posts their info.

I think normal expansion is 0.001" to 0.0015" at the 0.200" line from the original measurement no matter what it is. A custom reamer? The back 0.200" of the case never enters the chamber that's why you measure there for signs of pressure. I don't understand why you are worried about it if the rifle goes bang. Check out varmintal.com for some techy stuff on pressure at 0.200". The article on pressure and case head expansion is about 3/4 down in the article. In the reloading section. Al did complicated stress and strain calculations for the Nuclear Weapons people. Many interesting pages to read. A lot of good drawings.

If you get an error message clicking on varmintal.com type it in outside of this website. The article on pressure and case head expanion is under the reloading topic section. You have to scroll about 3/4 of the way down in the article to get to case head expansion.

Interesting article on tuners.

 

[jxb]

If memory serves me correctly, the sammi reamer print shows .445 generally there is some spring back after firing. My loaded rounds measure .243 and chamber very easily. This means my cases are being worked .002 or less which means the brass should last a long time, especially if I anneal them.

Yep, but I'm not talking about length growth here, strictly diameter expansion at .200 forward of the bolt face or shell rim face is close enough to .200.

SAAMI shows (pg 64)
chamber .4458 (+002 allowed)
cartridge .4449 (-008 allowed)

So that leaves a possible spread from min cartridge to max chamber of .0109 (at .200 line)
.4369 --> .4478

 

[jxb]

Cases lasting a long time...hummm....

Brass flow into the neck is a deal killer on the Swift, and this gets complicated.

ON a re barrel, a Swift improved is a Monster, I hunted with a guy that had a Swift improved with a 12 twist Hart barrel with short freebore, who shot the 60g Berger at the same speed I was shooting a 55g sierra in my Ruger 77s and Savage 112Js. On my re-rebarrel, I wimped out with a 22/250 AI, but the Swift AI is one of those cartridges on my bucket list. The Swift brass is very strong, and when you AI the Swift case, you have a Monster of a varmint rifle. The Swift Improved will rival the 22/243 AI and the the Middlestead in terms of speed with less powder.

When loading up the Swift brass, realize that there is a tremendous amount of difference between the Norma and Winchester brands. I stuck with Winchester for the win.

When I had trimmed my Swift brass 5 times, the next time it needed trimming, it got thrown in the trash. I did establish what the chamber length was in my rifle, and it was usually over book max length. I trimmed when Length got to the max, never before.

Yeah on rebarrel I'll likely go to 220 AI, mostly to get a case that will stretch less due to the improved/flatter taper on the body, another 100fps sounds nice too. However in the meantime a lot of that stretch can be mitigated by simply not FL resizing fully, as in just push the shoulder back what's needed for that rifle. I have been shooting swift for nearly 30 years and never issues reloading for it. Sure case life was not great, but I was making the mistake early on of FL resizing fully (vs just pushing the shoulder back as much as is needed for that chamber). Even just pushing the shoulder back only helps so much, we run these full out and case body design has too much taper so there's only so much we can do. Some folks say, just don't push it so hard... um well then I might as well just shoot 22-250. I have three of those BTW, so I'm well aware of the differences and a 22-250 is not a 220 Swift. The swift shoots flatter farther and that's where I use it. I never shoot over 53gn pills and usually 40-52 so a 1:14 is just fine and no grey puffs.

As for neck length a nice trick folks are now using to determine proper for a rifle is to put a new or spent shell in (not loaded/primed) and then use a bore scope to see what the gap is in front of it. This is allowing them to not only see when it's about to max/touch, but also so they aren't over trimming their brass and creating a large gap for carbon buildup between the neck and lip. I haven't done that as it's not been a problem for me, but I did think it was an interesting idea to visually look vs just specs and/or waiting for signs.

I'd take Norma brass over any of the others any day, unfortunately the premium brass makers don't make em but I keep hoping on of them will. I asked Peterson but they said they are done adding after those they have in the works are out and this isn't one of them. Even with the Swift I get far more reloads from Norma than the others. These days I anneal so that helps a lot regardless of brand.

 

[jxb]

I think normal expansion is 0.001" to 0.0015" at the 0.200" line from the original measurement no matter what it is. A custom reamer? The back 0.200" of the case never enters the chamber that's why you measure there for signs of pressure. I don't understand why you are worried about it if the rifle goes bang. Check out varmintal.com for some techy stuff on pressure at 0.200". The article on pressure and case head expansion is about 3/4 down in the article. In the reloading section. Al did complicated stress and strain calculations for the Nuclear Weapons people. Many interesting pages to read. A lot of good drawings.

If you get an error message clicking on varmintal.com type it in outside of this website. The article on pressure and case head expanion is under the reloading topic section. You have to scroll about 3/4 of the way down in the article to get to case head expansion.

Interesting article on tuners.

Thanks I'll check it out. As for the measurements, you'll see from data above we're seeing far more than 1-1.5 thousands. This is why I asked, well kinda. most listed above are in the .444-.445 range, you can see below where the shells started from. The Remington ones are really getting stretched but the others are twice what you're talking. This is why I think a custom reamer is in order, say .001-.0015 larger than the largest brass, which is .441, so a chamber at .200 of .442-.4425 seems where we really need to be. Would be nice if someone can measure some new/factory 220 Swift Winchester brass to get that size added. I'm guessing they will still produce it going forward, I haven't seen them say otherwise.

from above: (at .200)
Hornady new brass and factory unfired rounds are .440
Norma new brass are .441
Remington factory unfired rounds are .4385

 

[jxb]

Ok, so here's the real reason I started down this path. I have two of these with new factory barrels, one expands about +.003 at .200 and is only slightly noticeable visually. However the other measures about the same expansion or a little more, but it's all on one side of the shell. So yeah once fired cases that on one side look similar to what one does with a case separation ring starting. That rifle was just sent back as it's clear there's an issue. It appears to me that after fire forming (firing) the case head is no longer square with the case from .200 forward. I don't have a lathe to check runout, but putting them into my trimmer shows the pilot doesn't line up on any and by quite a bit.

Unclear whether this is a chamber to bore issue or maybe the action or face isn't square to the barrel and bore. While looking at this issue and gathering the data to support why it needed to come back to them I noticed this expansion was more than expected and why I asked you all here for comparison data. While I don't like the expansion, it's within SAAMI and appears similar to what folks have posted here. It's just that my three 22-250 expand maybe .0005, my .204, 6.5 creedmoor, and 7Rem Mag I can't find enough to measure. My 6.5 creedmoor is a wonder, it not only doesn't expand at all, but even after 3 firings and only neck sizing length is +.001 and the shoulder has moved less than that. Of course that's a cold case compared to the Swift, really only the 22-250 compare but as you can see they hardly swell so I was surprised the Swift cases from two rifles did so much and again asked for your data as a sanity check.

On the question of why do I care, it goes bang... sure if I was not reloading I wouldn't care, they both shoot ok and better than many factory barrels. But I do reload and as you all know brass is not only costly but now that nobody is making the Swift it's possible some might drop brass making it even harder to get. It all comes down to I love my Swifts and I want to get as many reloads as possible out of each case. Four to Six reloads is a 50% increase, to eight is a 100% increase. Anywhere we can reduce the expansion/contraction we improve case life, that's well known. I don't want to rebarrel them yet to match barrels and a custom chamber so I'm thinking I'll just use my FL die but only push the shoulder back .001-.0015 or whatever is required for each to chamber correctly and not over resize. That should help case life on these considerably.

Thanks so much to everyone that provided your expansion specs, I was hoping for more but this really helps validate mine are not way off what others see.

 

[jxb]

I think normal expansion is 0.001" to 0.0015" at the 0.200" line from the original measurement no matter what it is. A custom reamer? The back 0.200" of the case never enters the chamber that's why you measure there for signs of pressure. I don't understand why you are worried about it if the rifle goes bang. Check out varmintal.com for some techy stuff on pressure at 0.200". The article on pressure and case head expansion is about 3/4 down in the article. In the reloading section. Al did complicated stress and strain calculations for the Nuclear Weapons people. Many interesting pages to read. A lot of good drawings.

If you get an error message clicking on varmintal.com type it in outside of this website. The article on pressure and case head expanion is under the reloading topic section. You have to scroll about 3/4 of the way down in the article to get to case head expansion.

Interesting article on tuners.

your link isn't correct, that's why the 404 message. it's missing the .htm in your link, hover over it and you can see.
should be: https://varmintal.com/arelo.htm

I'm not referring to case head expansion above, that's a whole other issue and I'm not seeing any of that. The cases measure just fine even in front of the extractor cut. What I'm referring to is only the normal case expansion to fill the chamber but in the body diameter at the .200 mark.

I loved the annealing part on heads... as in bad bad bad... um yeah that's a good way to ruin more than just your day. Tempilaq Advanced is your friend... I use 650 on the neck shoulder down the body a bit, then 400 full length of the body. This assures you not only know that you're in range in the neck shoulder, but exactly where on the body 400 stops. Annealing starts at about 490, so 400 leave plenty of room for error. I never see 400 below the anneal color change line but I still test every batch with Tempilaq Advanced. Never anneal anywhere close to the case heads... There's a reason they are hardest and it gets softer as you move up towards the neck. ;-)

 

[Webster]

Thanks I'll check it out. As for the measurements, you'll see from data above we're seeing far more than 1-1.5 thousands. This is why I asked, well kinda. most listed above are in the .444-.445 range, you can see below where the shells started from. The Remington ones are really getting stretched but the others are twice what you're talking. This is why I think a custom reamer is in order, say .001-.0015 larger than the largest brass, which is .441, so a chamber at .200 of .442-.4425 seems where we really need to be. Would be nice if someone can measure some new/factory 220 Swift Winchester brass to get that size added. I'm guessing they will still produce it going forward, I haven't seen them say otherwise.

from above: (at .200)
Hornady new brass and factory unfired rounds are .440
Norma new brass are .441
Remington factory unfired rounds are .4385

Even if you get a reamer for a tighter chamber the cases still have the same diameter. Why are you worried about it? If the gun functions normally leave it alone. If you get a tighter chamber would some cases fail to chamber. It isn't worth the time and trouble after all it's a hunting rifle.

On varmital's website in the Engineering Page section he shows how the pressure affects the different parts of the primer cup from internal pressure. The greatest strain on the cup is on the corner where the cup failed in the posted pictures.

 

[jxb]

Even if you get a reamer for a tighter chamber the cases still have the same diameter. Why are you worried about it? If the gun functions normally leave it alone. If you get a tighter chamber would some cases fail to chamber. It isn't worth the time and trouble after all it's a hunting rifle.

Well if anyone doesn't know by now, I'm not sure saying any more would help. Each unto their own...

 

[pirate ammo]

All I got to say is I LOVE MY SWIFT and that's it. And I got a shiny new barrel to put on it.

 

[Webster]

Yep, but I'm not talking about length growth here, strictly diameter expansion at .200 forward of the bolt face or shell rim face is close enough to .200.

SAAMI shows (pg 64)
chamber .4458 (+002 allowed)
cartridge .4449 (-008 allowed)

So that leaves a possible spread from min cartridge to max chamber of .0109 (at .200 line)
.4369 --> .4478

You don't have to meet SAAMI specs.

 

[jxb]

You don't have to meet SAAMI specs.

and your point is?

The topic of this thread is asking for folks to share their expansion size at the .200 line followed by why I asked. Some folks have graciously offered up that info but I don't see where you have provided the same. If you don't have anything constructive to add that is on-topic then please go post elsewhere.

 

[Gary in MD]

Thanks I'll check it out. As for the measurements, you'll see from data above we're seeing far more than 1-1.5 thousands. This is why I asked, well kinda. most listed above are in the .444-.445 range, you can see below where the shells started from. The Remington ones are really getting stretched but the others are twice what you're talking. This is why I think a custom reamer is in order, say .001-.0015 larger than the largest brass, which is .441, so a chamber at .200 of .442-.4425 seems where we really need to be. Would be nice if someone can measure some new/factory 220 Swift Winchester brass to get that size added. I'm guessing they will still produce it going forward, I haven't seen them say otherwise.

from above: (at .200)
Hornady new brass and factory unfired rounds are .440
Norma new brass are .441
Remington factory unfired rounds are .4385

Just measured some new Winny brass, it is .441” This is from some new - old stock in the Blue bags if that makes a difference.

 

[jxb]

Just measured some new Winny brass, it is .441” This is from some new - old stock in the Blue bags if that makes a difference.

Cool thanks, I think the only one I'm missing for new brass at .200 is Nosler. I'll send em a note asking but unlikely I'd get that in premium brass and normal will need to be resized anyhow so doesn't really matter, I'm just curious now.

 

[Ggmac]

You do know that each rifle design will change your numbers . A mauser for instance has .110 ( + or - .003 )of the case exposed , so the .200 line is in the chamber . Each action has its own unique bolt nose depth plus .003 for the nose to barrel clearance . My 220 swift on a 98 will expand the solid head about .002 IIRC