Question for 220 Swift owners/reloaders

[6MMsteve]

Yeah on rebarrel I'll likely go to 220 AI, mostly to get a case that will stretch less due to the improved/flatter taper on the body, another 100fps sounds nice too. However in the meantime a lot of that stretch can be mitigated by simply not FL resizing fully, as in just push the shoulder back what's needed for that rifle. I have been shooting swift for nearly 30 years and never issues reloading for it. Sure case life was not great, but I was making the mistake early on of FL resizing fully (vs just pushing the shoulder back as much as is needed for that chamber). Even just pushing the shoulder back only helps so much, we run these full out and case body design has too much taper so there's only so much we can do. Some folks say, just don't push it so hard... um well then I might as well just shoot 22-250. I have three of those BTW, so I'm well aware of the differences and a 22-250 is not a 220 Swift. The swift shoots flatter farther and that's where I use it. I never shoot over 53gn pills and usually 40-52 so a 1:14 is just fine and no grey puffs.

As for neck length a nice trick folks are now using to determine proper for a rifle is to put a new or spent shell in (not loaded/primed) and then use a bore scope to see what the gap is in front of it. This is allowing them to not only see when it's about to max/touch, but also so they aren't over trimming their brass and creating a large gap for carbon buildup between the neck and lip. I haven't done that as it's not been a problem for me, but I did think it was an interesting idea to visually look vs just specs and/or waiting for signs.

I'd take Norma brass over any of the others any day, unfortunately the premium brass makers don't make em but I keep hoping on of them will. I asked Peterson but they said they are done adding after those they have in the works are out and this isn't one of them. Even with the Swift I get far more reloads from Norma than the others. These days I anneal so that helps a lot regardless of brand.

yep you just want to bump the shoulder a bit, my swift brass just loses primer pockets easy not really hot loads, no nk splits, .442 is what I have WW brass, 26 inch Douglas bull 1n12....440 after sizing

 

[jxb]

You do know that each rifle design will change your numbers . A mauser for instance has .110 ( + or - .003 )of the case exposed , so the .200 line is in the chamber . Each action has its own unique bolt nose depth plus .003 for the nose to barrel clearance . My 220 swift on a 98 will expand the solid head about .002 IIRC

We are talking about in-chamber expansion at the .200 line (case body), not case head expansion or any of the many other specs for a chamber or cartridge. The only spec I asked for was related to the expansion at the .200 line on the body of a 220 Swift case. Simply a sanity check to assure I wasn't the only one seeing so much expansion in the body. We drifted into what the various manufacturers cases start at, but that's more related to if a person wanted a custom reamer made that rather than being at say min SAAMI spec, it would be based on the new case size. If you look above you'll see everyone's are expanding more than the desirable .001-.0015 at .200 line. To your point it's not just design or manufacturers, every reamer is different. Some places order to min specs, others to custom specs, and others that do lots of bulk chamberings are thought to start closer to the limits so they can make a reamer last longer through all the sharpening.

The min SAAMI chamber spec at .200 is .4458, if the largest new case we're seeing is .441

 

[Ggmac]

got it . Most newer cases , my examples were measuring 308 , they ran .467 on average when the saami was 470-471 . I guess the bean counters can stretch more cases per pound of brass . It was a concern trying to stay super sonic, at range , and neede cases as large as possible

 

[jxb]

yep you just want to bump the shoulder a bit, my swift brass just loses primer pockets easy not really hot loads, no nk splits, .442 is what I have WW brass, 26 inch criterion bull 1n12....440 after sizing

yep that's what I plan to do, on reload, measure some for that batch, push the shoulder back about .0015, check what I ended up with at .200 for that diameter and of course make sure they chamber fine before I prime the cases, .001-.0015 should be enough. Once the barrels are shot out that's where I'm thinking I'll go with a reamer that's closer to the brass we're getting.

So are you saying your new WW brass/rounds are .442 at the .200 line? If yes that would be the largest I've heard so far and presume that's newer WW brass not new old brass like Gary provided .441 for. Just confirming I'm reading correctly.

 

[jxb]

got it . Most newer cases , my examples were measuring 308 , they ran .467 on average when the saami was 470-471 . I guess the bean counters can stretch more cases per pound of brass . It was a concern trying to stay super sonic, at range , and neede cases as large as possible

yeah I don't see any of this on my other calibers, 22-250 is closest and it's <.001 expansion at .200

Most folks that shoot the Swift know exactly what I'm referring to, it's pretty hard on cases in general due to the body taper and of course we're generally running max loads. I have an old M77 in Swift that's even worse for this and it just chewed up cases, like 3-4 reloads max. I was just a bit surprised to get two new chamberings (factory) with so much expansion in the body until I checked the SAAMI specs. That's when I thought, ok these are within spec, lets see what others are seeing on their Swift's. Notice I didn't ask for manu, only factory vs custom and that's cause I keep hearing most smiths try to cut min chambers whereas factory folks are more into getting the most out of the reamers while staying in spec. Which of course explains why some are tight, others kinda, and ones like these that are IMO simply sloppy. When the fired case looks like it's got college sophomore spread (midriff)...

 

[Ggmac]

.445 from old frontier Hornady ammo on its 5 reload hot !

yeah I don't see any of this on my other calibers, 22-250 is closest and it's <.001 expansion at .200

Most folks that shoot the Swift know exactly what I'm referring to, it's pretty hard on cases in general due to the body taper and of course we're generally running max loads. I have an old M77 in Swift that's even worse for this and it just chewed up cases, like 3-4 reloads max. I was just a bit surprised to get two new chamberings (factory) with so much expansion in the body until I checked the SAAMI specs. That's when I thought, ok these are within spec, lets see what others are seeing on their Swift's. Notice I didn't ask for manu, only factory vs custom and that's cause I keep hearing most smiths try to cut min chambers whereas factory folks are more into getting the most out of the reamers while staying in spec. Which of course explains why some are tight, others kinda, and ones like these that are IMO simply sloppy. When the fired case looks like it's got college sophomore spread (midriff)...

forgot. Mine was a 1981 douglass XX barrel

 

[6MMsteve]

yep that's what I plan to do, on reload, measure some for that batch, push the shoulder back about .0015, check what I ended up with at .200 for that diameter and of course make sure they chamber fine before I prime the cases, .001-.0015 should be enough. Once the barrels are shot out that's where I'm thinking I'll go with a reamer that's closer to the brass we're getting.

So are you saying your new WW brass/rounds are .442 at the .200 line? If yes that would be the largest I've heard so far and presume that's newer WW brass not new old brass like Gary provided .441 for. Just confirming I'm reading correctly.

after firing .442 resized to .440 I think

 

[jxb]

after firing .442 resized to .440 I think

I'd love to have chambers that only went to .442, guessing visually and by touch you don't really notice any change in diameter. My Remington factory rounds starting at .4385 and growing to .444/.445 it's like... OH MY visually and running your nail over it starting at the rim you get to about .200 and it's like a speed bump without the down part.

Compared to everything else I have that basically shows nothing, it was a bit surprising to see my Swift cases look like that.

 

[Ggmac]

I'd love to have chambers that only went to .442, guessing visually and by touch you don't really notice any change in diameter. My Remington factory rounds starting at .4385 and growing to .444/.445 it's like... OH MY visually and running your nail over it starting at the rim you get to about .200 and it's like a speed bump without the down part.

Compared to everything else I have that basically shows nothing, it was a bit surprising to see my Swift cases look like that.

If its on one side one of 2 possible things are happening.Besides the obvious, that being thin brass on one side . One would be an chamber that the barrel that wasn’t dialed in . The other is a large or saami chamber and small brass , both in headspace and base diameter. As the cartridge sits in the chamber , of course its sitting on the bottom an when fired the bulge is at the top . Easy to confirm with marked and indexed cases . I think Ive got a box of new old stock Remington brass . I’ll have to see .
Here are PTG chamber specs . Notice the ackley dimensions vs saami

 

[jxb]

If its on one side one of 2 possible things are happening. One would be an chamber that the barrel that wasn’t dialed in . The other is a large or saami chamber and small brass , both in headspace and base diameter. As the cartridge sits in the chamber , of course its sitting on the bottom an when fired the bulge is at the top . Easy to confirm with marked and indexed cases . I think Ive got a box of new old stock Remington brass . I’ll have to see .
Here are PTG chamber specs . Notice the ackley dimensions vs saami

Yeah that's kinda my point, notice how both of these from PTG use .4458 (@ .200 from bolt face) which matches the SAAMI chamber spec so even those are considerably larger than the largest case we've seen at .442 (@.200). As an aside, one of the reasons I also planned to go to the AI is to get less body taper which has been shown to really help mitigate the case stretch issue (length and brass flowing forward). You've probably noticed how most of the new cases have very little taper. There's still some debate whether shoulder at 30 or 40 deg is better, I smiled at the solution for the 6GT, just split the diff at 35.

This really surprised me, I had no idea that AI was other than 40, but it's been more than a decade since I was around any. Redding: 220 Swift Imp 40 ̊ or 32 ̊

It will be interesting to see what they find for the cause and what I end up with when it comes back. I no longer expect them to be the same chamber/throat so I'll just continue with my ladder testing on the one at home and deal with the other when it's back.

 

[Gary in MD]

Mostly shoot groups with my Swift….
Groups of varmints LOL

 

[Webster]

Mostly shoot groups with my Swift….
Groups of varmints LOL

View attachment 1445113View attachment 1445114

No loading bench non-sense. Just use the gun for what it was made for.

 

[jxb]

Mostly shoot groups with my Swift….
Groups of varmints LOL

View attachment 1445113View attachment 1445114

Yeah me too, except I add yotes and sage rats to the mix. We don't have prairie dogs, I really need to get in on some of that. As for chucks, they were always a fav but decades ago some clubs shot them out many places in the west and I was so disgusted by that I simply quit. Not that I wouldn't if I ran into a large population. Always leave a breeding pair...

Is that a Cooper? Stock looks a lot like my Jackson game, except the bolt location and the seemingly really long barrel. How long is that?

 

[Gary in MD]

Yup, Cooper Jackson Game & 26” barrel

 

[jxb]

Yup, Cooper Jackson Game & 26” barrel

Barrel look must just be camera angle. I'm sure that's a sweet shooter, mine is a 2013 7Mag 26", love it. I was a bit sad to see they up and sold out but such is life.

 

[jxb]

Just to tie this thread off, Nosler got back to me, their new brass and loaded ammo is .442 @.200

Thanks again everyone for the input.

summary: (spread = 0.0035)
note: Nosler provided their sizes, the others are all end user input.

220 swift new brass/rounds at .200 line
.4385 Remington factory unfired rounds
.440 Hornady new brass and factory unfired round
.441 Norma new brass
.441 Winchester new old brass
.442 Nosler premium brass and factory unfired ammo

LOL, who'd know measuring at the .200 line was a thing...
https://www.pmatool.com/200-line-measuring-tool-kit/

 

[DuoGlide]

Well, the horse may have twitched, so...

R-P circa 1995 averaged .4432 new unfired
Fired, the R-P averaged .4424
Fired Win (same vintage) was the same .4424.

Oddball rifle. S'field '03 action (S/N 1,25x,xxx). Barrel (26" heavy taper, 1:14) marked E.F. Bright Vineland NJ. Bolt is from an '03-A3 sniper rifle.

 

[jxb]

Well, the horse may have twitched, so...

R-P circa 1995 averaged .4432 new unfired
Fired, the R-P averaged .4424
Fired Win (same vintage) was the same .4424.

Oddball rifle. S'field '03 action (S/N 1,25x,xxx). Barrel (26" heavy taper, 1:14) marked E.F. Bright Vineland NJ. Bolt is from an '03-A3 sniper rifle.

were these RP fired the same as the RP unfired? asking because as you can see the fired are smaller which would seem unlikely unless that brass has some serious spring back.

 

[DuoGlide]

were these RP fired the same as the RP unfired? asking because as you can see the fired are smaller which would seem unlikely unless that brass has some serious spring back.

I'm not used to old age and mis-read the mic.

The unfired R-P cases measure .4382, which makes sense.

Thanks for the question!