Question about FT/R stocks

[XTR]

If that lower thumbwheel will adjust the elevation of the rear of the stock you can bet you'll get protested at any major event, and I'd bet more than one adult beverage that you'd get DQ'd, that's assuming you make it through the weigh-in at some place like Raton..

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Exactly, either sent to Dairy Queen or F-Open.

ETA: Saw the edit, and I was also thinking that was a lot of weight in the stock. Must have a skinny short barrel to make up for it. Or perhaps he uses iron sights and twigs for a bipod.

 

[mao0720]

It's better to have it here than in Raton or at some other big match, don't you think?

Yes I do, but I want to keep this thread on topic of BEST ANGLE FOR THE BAG RIDER SECTION OF THE STOCK FOR FT/R, not the legalities of an adjustable bag rider.

 

[Trevor60]

Interesting rifle.

I have the Robertson H&H with a 30 degree cant. sometimes it is too much and the recoil cause extra elevation lift which I have to adjust for by holding harder. Other times it seems like the steeper angle allows me to shoot on uneven ground better then a more straight tapered stock (read Camp Perry)
Now if I were to do it over again I would opt for 15 degree cant and be more active with my rear bag.

As for Mystic players rear rifle set up. according to ICFRA rule F2.16 his rear adjuster is allowed.

The F/TR rifle bipod and rear bag may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The rifle, bipod or rear rest may, however, incorporate an integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore-end provided that it does not contravene rule F2.3

it appears clean but I will leave that up to the rule committee as I am curious what their interpretation of this phrase.
integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore-end it doesn't say and/or it says OR so does that mean you can have only ONE integral mechanism for raising and lowering????????

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

It's better to have it here than in Raton or at some other big match, don't you think?

Yes I do, but I want to keep this thread on topic of BEST ANGLE FOR THE BAG RIDER SECTION OF THE STOCK FOR FT/R, not the legalities of an adjustable bag rider.

Gotcha. My PR&T F-TR stock has a very slight angle on the bottom and I like it very much. I can do semi-gross elevation adjustments sliding the bag back and forth and squeeze the bag for fine adjustment. The rifle slides back nicely and I can see the target to detect the trace (sometimes) and the impact from 600 yards on.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Interesting rifle.

I have the Robertson H&H with a 30 degree cant. sometimes it is too much and the recoil cause extra elevation lift which I have to adjust for by holding harder. Other times it seems like the steeper angle allows me to shoot on uneven ground better then a more straight tapered stock (read Camp Perry)
Now if I were to do it over again I would opt for 15 degree cant and be more active with my rear bag.

As for Mystic players rear rifle set up. according to ICFRA rule F2.16 his rear adjuster is allowed.

The F/TR rifle bipod and rear bag may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The rifle, bipod or rear rest may, however, incorporate an integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore-end provided that it does not contravene rule F2.3

it appears clean but I will leave that up to the rule committee as I am curious what their interpretation of this phrase.
integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore-end it doesn't say and/or it says OR so does that mean you can have only ONE integral mechanism for raising and lowering????????

So it will be legal in competitions where IFCRA rules are used and illegal in competitions where NRA rules are used. If MP comes to Raton this summer, he can't use it for the Nationals but he should be able to use it for the Worlds?

 

[Trevor60]

the rule states that no adjustable support is allowed. the stock is not "support" it is what is being supported.
NRA rule
No portion of the rifle
=
s butt or forend shall rest directly on the ground
or any hard surface. A rear
rabbit eared bag, small sandbag or a gloved hand ma
y be used to support the rifle
=
s butt. Any rear
support employed shall not be attached, clamped or
held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support
may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing poi
nt. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not allowed.
[/quote]

copying Treeman email but looking at the NRA rules his rifle stock is legal.

Hey Bayou based on what I am reading on the NRA rule the set up used by mystic is legal.
section 3.4.1 subsection b #4 states
No Portion of the rifle's butt or forend shall rest directly on the ground or any hard surface. A rear rabbit eared bag, small sandbag, or gloved hand may be used to support the rifle's butt. Any rear support (see previous examples) employed shall not be attached, clamped or held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing point. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not allow.

Based on what I am reading the rear bag can not be mechanically adjustable it does not say that the rifle can not have an mechanical adjustment attached to the rifle resting on the rear support.

So from what I am reading............. I call it good.
But like you, would not bet on one guy (giving free advice on the internet) as to my understanding and travel to the FCN's without confirming... as there is a lot of money, time and energy to sit around and watch because they decided to DQ the set up.

 

[Scott Harris]

I prefer a slight taper to make small elevation adjustments: MUCH more convenient.

 

[mao0720]

So here is what I ended up doing. I made a bag rider out of a small piece of oak, shaped it and channeled out the one side to make it fit nicely to the stock. I left a slight taper to it, but obviously much less than before. The target was 15 rounds at 200yds. I dont know if it was the bag rider or switching to a proper FT/R Bipod (I was using a sinclair tactical bipod) or a combo of both that did it for me, but that was BY FAR THE BEST SHOOTING I HAVE EVER PUT ON PAPER! Far left shot was my one sighter and the one high right was my second to last shot, I got complacent and relaxed my hold a bit I think. I really like the bag rider though, much less lateral/ vertical movement after the shot breaks.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Well done. Next on the list is a decent rear bag.

 

[mao0720]

Protector not good enough for you? Seems to be doing just fine for me.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Just trying to help you spend money.

 

[mao0720]

Unfortunately I seem to be able to do that on my own. ;D

 

[mysticplayer]

I figured the pic would start a conversation. The set up is legal in ICFRA rules for sure.

I have had verbal for NRA as well but am waiting on other opinions higher up the food chain.

The stock is NOT the rear rest. It doesn't make contact with the ground. There is a squishy sandbag between the stock and the ground.

So functionally, it is no different then a taper in the rear stock.

Adjusting for elevation either from the front or rear is legal as long as it doesn't involve any device for return to battery or "digs" into the ground.

Yes, it is a good idea to have this resolved before the USFN.

As for mass it is 8.1kg

Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

@mysticplayer, That is a HOT looking stock! I constructed a bag rider last night for my stock. Turned out pretty nice... Not as nice as yours, with its elevation adjustment and all. Did you vinyl wrap your action?

No its a new prototype Carbon Fibre receiver....

Jerry

PS Wanna buy a bridge?

 

[mysticplayer]

If that lower thumbwheel will adjust the elevation of the rear of the stock you can bet you'll get protested at any major event, and I'd bet more than one adult beverage that you'd get DQ'd, that's assuming you make it through the weigh-in at some place like Raton..

When do you think there will be a protest for some rear bags that are essentially a solid block of "sand" hiding in a girdle of rigid leather and other internal goodies?

"Easily deformed by finger pressure" Not a hope... Yes, it is a line in the NRA rule book.

I will post the results I get back from the NRA on my stock. It is important and I feel fully legal given the text of both rule books

We shall see.....

Jerry

 

[Steve Blair]

When do you think there will be a protest for some rear bags that are essentially a solid block of "sand" hiding in a girdle of rigid leather and other internal goodies?

"Easily deformed by finger pressure" Not a hope... Yes, it is a line in the NRA rule book.

I will post the results I get back from the NRA on my stock. It is important and I feel fully legal given the text of both rule books

We shall see.....

Jerry

[br]
Please cite the source of "Easily deformed by finger pressure". That phrase does not exist in any applicable F-Class rules I've found.

 

[mysticplayer]

When do you think there will be a protest for some rear bags that are essentially a solid block of "sand" hiding in a girdle of rigid leather and other internal goodies?

"Easily deformed by finger pressure" Not a hope... Yes, it is a line in the NRA rule book.

I will post the results I get back from the NRA on my stock. It is important and I feel fully legal given the text of both rule books

We shall see.....

Jerry

[br]
Please cite the source of "Easily deformed by finger pressure". That phrase does not exist in any applicable F-Class rules I've found.

Sorry, ICFRA rules.

http://www.icfra.co.uk/FCRules_2009.pdf

See sections F2.18

Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

Well, I have a decision from the NRA Chief Referee.

"Hi Jerry,

Please excuse the delay in replying to your question.

As far as I can determine, the NRA rules have nothing stating that your modification is illegal as long as it rest on a sand bag.

I am looking forward to seeing this setup at the match. Maybe you’ll let me get behind it to see how it works.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions or concerns.

Regards,

R... R"


See you all in Raton

Jerry