Pulling Targets - READ

[whatsthediff]

After some thought and rereading my post I would like to say I do not know for a fact that the paid pullers and the shooter that were paying them were on the same target. But, it appeared to me that the shooters that paid for pullers shot on targets that were pulled by paid pullers. I agree with Mark that that payee and puller should not be on the same target and I can not say for a fact that this was the case. I was not accusing anyone of cheating and I don't want this to be construed that I was implying such.
I did learn a valuable lesson last weekend, if you want guaranteed good pit service, pony up and pay the price.

How can paid puller pulling for shooter paying him be cheating, did I miss something in the rule book?
Or did you me to say that having a paid puller is cheating if they pull for you? I bet your rifle is one of a kind, is that fair, I saw Johnny get the worst wind on one of his matches and the next match it died down, it cost him 6 points does he get a do over, no that is part of the sport, and bad pit service is also part of the sport except you have an option to fix it, unlike the wind.

Don

 

[whatsthediff]

Don,
I have no problem if a shooter has a disability and must have a puller. Why is this match not conducted in a manner such as the F Class national championships coming up in Phoenix? Read the line that says: Target Service: Competitors will pull their own targets.

At that match paid pullers are not allowed, I didn't make the rules I just read them and at the TSRA it was allowed so I had one, at the nationals I would not, call Ken and see if he will change the rules, be careful this opens another can of warms regarding who is disabled.

Don

 

[whatsthediff]

Mark is very good and that is why he should have crappy pit service. Just like a golf handicap.

Perfect we need to have him pissed at the puller and give us a chance.

Don

 

[B Mize]

I think everyone that has shot for any length of time has had a puller that has court them a few points. Hopefully at the nationals it will be better.
What really hurts is when you have a new guy that doesn't understand the scoring rings and scores an on the line hit wrong.
For me, if I have to get up close and inspect, shooter gets the higher point.

 

[AlanPF]

Just to give you some international persective, the speed of target pulling at the US Nationals and FCWC at Raton last year was a real eye-opener. I've shot at major competitions all around Australia with both paid and competitor "markers" as we call them, and while we have a few who are exceptionally fast, the general speed is well behind what we saw in that event. I was paired up with Kenny Adams on the first day of the Nationals and got a very swift introduction to what is expected in the pits . I gradually improved over the course of the session, and made a good friend in process.

But in my opinion speed of pulling is not so important as consistency. I would be quite happy with say 15 seconds if it was the same for everyone. I don't believe electronic targets are used widely in the US yet, but when they are, there is zero target pulling delay. The only discernible delay is the time for the bullet to get to the target, then the shot position is immediately displayed to the shooter. Personally I think this is too quick. It encourages "machine-gunning" as we call it, and allows the shooter to reduce the number of wind changes in a shoot. And wind reading is surely the main skill in this game?

 

[okshooter]

It would be easy to see that a paid puller pulling for the person paying him could cheat. He's the only one that sees the target well. All 9s become 10s, all 10s become Xs, etc.

A paid puller should only replace your duties in the pits if you can't or just don't want to do it. I have had pullers range from an 11 year old newbie that didn't have the lead in his pants to handle the frames to seasoned shooters that don't do anything fast. At a club level match, I just see that as getting new guys involved (I loaned the 11 year old the rifle and asked that he be placed on my wife and is target so he wouldn't slow anyone else). At a big match, I think there should be a set time as a max. and if you can't meet that consistently, you should be required to pay for a puller for those squadded with you.

 

[diego-ted]

A factor of the speed of pulling goes with the circumstances. Last year at the FCWC in Raton, I was paired with an older gentleman from New Zealand, he was older and not in good shape, I just let him sit as I pulled for all the matches that day, watching him pull a target was painful not only for him doing the work but for me watching and I am sure for the shooter pulling! To give perspective, I have an artificial shoulder and could run circles around the older gent.

At Camp Pendleton, we too have a couple of older guys who for some reason just can't get it done reasonably. Shooters are pulling their hair out waiting for service. On the other hand before the fire, if you were further down the line, you just could not see the impact zone, it was tough to give good service, and I was too guilty of taking too much time before the fire burned all the weeds.

Diego

 

[painless2]

At the NATS I want two complete strangers to pull and score my target and fellow shooters.
I have been to a couple of matches were BilliJoe and BilliBob pull and score for Uncle Joe.
Guess who won?
Tom

 

[DBailey]

Mark is very good and that is why he should have crappy pit service. Just like a golf handicap.

Perfect we need to have him pissed at the puller and give us a chance.

Don

Y'all have it all wrong, Mark is way to good to get pissed at the puller while he's shooting. He knows that's just going to make a bad score worse.

 

[Rtheurer]

Just to give you some international persective, the speed of target pulling at the US Nationals and FCWC at Raton last year was a real eye-opener. I've shot at major competitions all around Australia with both paid and competitor "markers" as we call them, and while we have a few who are exceptionally fast, the general speed is well behind what we saw in that event. I was paired up with Kenny Adams on the first day of the Nationals and got a very swift introduction to what is expected in the pits . I gradually improved over the course of the session, and made a good friend in process.

Indeed, Had some of my worst pit service in Australia and Canada. Typical US shooter would be steaming at the ears at the speed of pit service from paid pullers. Or at least a whole pit, full of paid pullers. One advantage of pulling targets for your fellow shooters is that you understand how important it is while the paid pullers are just doing a job for several days, for the most part, little money.
I wont comment on shooting 3 to the mound AND having slow pit service.

 

[chkunz]

This is an age old problem and leading by example and mentoring new shooters is important. Many of the good ideas identified here put another task on the match director, and many of them do not have enough help running the match as it is so they are not interested in more great ideas for them to deal with. I think it is important to volunteer to help them as much as possible and take some of the stress off of them so they will have more time to deal with details like improving pit service. I benefit from fast pit service but there are reasonable expectations. If I believe that I am not getting what I consider reasonable service I say to my score keeper, "speed up the service on target X please" and have my score keeper relay that to the person running the line and have him relay the message to the pits, most will do that. If that does not get improvement I keep requesting the message be sent until I get better service or I am finally ignored. This way all involved know they have not met expectations. Some new shooters honestly do not know they are not doing well enough and having attention drawn to their poor performance may help. If there is a non shooting pit boss it also lets him know there is a problem and if he has time he may be able to help. I give fast pit service and if I have a fast shooter it frees me up to help with this issue on other firing points if I know where there is a problem.

 

[Bindi2]

Just to give you some international persective, the speed of target pulling at the US Nationals and FCWC at Raton last year was a real eye-opener. I've shot at major competitions all around Australia with both paid and competitor "markers" as we call them, and while we have a few who are exceptionally fast, the general speed is well behind what we saw in that event. I was paired up with Kenny Adams on the first day of the Nationals and got a very swift introduction to what is expected in the pits . I gradually improved over the course of the session, and made a good friend in process.

But in my opinion speed of pulling is not so important as consistency. I would be quite happy with say 15 seconds if it was the same for everyone. I don't believe electronic targets are used widely in the US yet, but when they are, there is zero target pulling delay. The only discernible delay is the time for the bullet to get to the target, then the shot position is immediately displayed to the shooter. Personally I think this is too quick. It encourages "machine-gunning" as we call it, and allows the shooter to reduce the number of wind changes in a shoot. And wind reading is surely the main skill in this game?

AS an Australian shooter using electronic targets you have the choice to run or hang. The term machine gunning is a furphy. The skill is in putting a shot hole in the middle of the target every time fast or slow your call. Some people can shoot faster than others so why do faster shooters have to be penalized to the slower time shooters. String shooting is just that. Bisley shooting is that the two are different. Don't try and make a hybrid match shoot the one you like and leave the other alone or just shoot in your own time inside the time limits and leave the others to do as they like within the time limits.. The highest score with the highest X count wins regardless.

 

[AlanPF]

AS an Australian shooter using electronic targets you have the choice to run or hang. The term machine gunning is a furphy. The skill is in putting a shot hole in the middle of the target every time fast or slow your call. Some people can shoot faster than others so why do faster shooters have to be penalized to the slower time shooters. String shooting is just that. Bisley shooting is that the two are different. Don't try and make a hybrid match shoot the one you like and leave the other alone or just shoot in your own time inside the time limits and leave the others to do as they like within the time limits.. The highest score with the highest X count wins regardless.

Best to explain what you mean by furphy. Its an Australian expression.

Regarding fast shooting on electronic targets, we may be talking about different things. When I say machine gunning, there are reports of a 10 shot F-Class shoot in Western Australia taking 37 seconds. Those with experience with multiple port actions say the best exponents will be able to get this down to about 3 seconds per shot with light calibres at short ranges. What this does is significantly reduce the number of wind changes encountered, and in my opinion dumbs down the sport.

 

[chkunz]

I shoot prone slow fire in the conventional prone position (aka sling shooter) and with the M14 I have to take the rifle out of my shoulder for each shot so I check the wind, plot my previous shot, check the wind, load and put the rifle back into my shoulder, check the wind and normally by that time my target is up. So the rule book standard for pit operations of 15 to 18 seconds is consistent with my procedure for that rifle. When I shoot mid range or long range matches with a scope and I leave the rifle in my shoulder and do not keep a data book and chase the spotter and shoot as fast as the pit service allows and pit service faster than the rule book standard is appreciated but I have no legitimate complaint if it is 18 seconds. Now the rule book standard predates F Class but has not been changed so it seems like F Class needs to rethink their expectations or lobby for a change in the rules. Actually the 15 to 18 seconds is not actually a rule but a guideline of normal operations. The rule actually says that operations must be such as to allow the competitor to complete within the allotted time which becomes somewhat subjective but would be much longer than 18 seconds. I commented on the rule book standard on another thread on this subject and the form bullies attacked saying they would be pissed with 18 second service. Getting pissed only helps the opposition so it is important to establish standards and strive to meet those standards. 3.7 seconds is not within current established standards and is not a reasonable expectation.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Just to give you some international persective, the speed of target pulling at the US Nationals and FCWC at Raton last year was a real eye-opener. I've shot at major competitions all around Australia with both paid and competitor "markers" as we call them, and while we have a few who are exceptionally fast, the general speed is well behind what we saw in that event. I was paired up with Kenny Adams on the first day of the Nationals and got a very swift introduction to what is expected in the pits . I gradually improved over the course of the session, and made a good friend in process.

But in my opinion speed of pulling is not so important as consistency. I would be quite happy with say 15 seconds if it was the same for everyone. I don't believe electronic targets are used widely in the US yet, but when they are, there is zero target pulling delay. The only discernible delay is the time for the bullet to get to the target, then the shot position is immediately displayed to the shooter. Personally I think this is too quick. It encourages "machine-gunning" as we call it, and allows the shooter to reduce the number of wind changes in a shoot. And wind reading is surely the main skill in this game?

AS an Australian shooter using electronic targets you have the choice to run or hang. The term machine gunning is a furphy. The skill is in putting a shot hole in the middle of the target every time fast or slow your call. Some people can shoot faster than others so why do faster shooters have to be penalized to the slower time shooters. String shooting is just that. Bisley shooting is that the two are different. Don't try and make a hybrid match shoot the one you like and leave the other alone or just shoot in your own time inside the time limits and leave the others to do as they like within the time limits.. The highest score with the highest X count wins regardless.

I don't believe Alan is talking about penalising - just the ability of ET's to take the concept of fast pit service to a whole new level...is this a problem maybe/maybe not but as Alan suggests it poses some philosophical questions for the sport. Certainly I think ET's can solve 4 pages of angst and bring consistency into the sport - which I think is really where Alan is coming from and is at the heart of this thread.

In the interests of disclosure - I shoot semi-regularly on ET's here in NZ and the majority of time on manual targets.

 

[M99]

I like the idea of Electronic Targets because it evens out the playing field. Like most competitors, I try to give the best pit service I can, but when the shooter is using a 6mm bullet, and especially with old back up boards, it can be hard to find the hits, unless he is shooting a tight group. Put a hole right in the white dividing line and it can take time to find it. I appreciate receiving good pit service as a shooter of course, but there is hardly any point in getting upset when you don't get it. Not many shooters, shoot well when they let themselves become aggravated. With Electronic targets, everyone has the exact same chance of using their skills at speed shooting if they wish, or precision shooting. Its pretty hard to do both consistently. That at least takes the vagaries of pit service out of the equation.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

I'd love to gravitate to all electronic targets…

The real question is how would people feel about paying $50 for match entries each day instead of $20ish or whatever they pay now?

Would you pay double to have them at your range?

Just curious about opinions on this…

 

[falconpilot]

Mark

Where do I sign up??? ;D I'd paid three times that a couple weekends ago!


Another thought as far as some feeling that the electronic targets are to fast. Since they are electric after all, just install a delay into the screens upon which the shots are reported. Match director has control and sets an agreed upon time, 5-8 seconds for example..now everyone has the exact same pit service..shoot fast or slow, however you want..by having a delay built in, you can create a system that if much more in line with the roots of the sport...another big plus that no one has spoken of is time...can you image how much faster a match can be run without all the pits problems and worries. If you have covered firing lines, you can shoot in a hurricane if you wish.

 

[Dos XX]

I looked at an electronic target at the Berger's in Feb. They claimed the accuracy was "about a bullet diameter." They didn't say what caliber bullet. Is this accurate enough? Thoughts on the NRA approving these?

What is the accuracy of the targets those of you down under are shooting on?

 

[6BRinNZ]

I looked at an electronic target at the Berger's in Feb. They claimed the accuracy was "about a bullet diameter." They didn't say what caliber bullet. Is this accurate enough? Thoughts on the NRA approving these?

What is the accuracy of the targets those of you down under are shooting on?

There are various systems out there so research is needed. I personally don't manage them, just shoot on them so I can't easily supply specifications. ET's are no panacea - pros and cons have to be understood and weighed up....although I would suggest it is a mid to long term trend.

You might be interested in this thread by whiddengunworks...kinda timely...

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3855688.0