PSA for MDs, F-Open and F-TR are seperate classes

[XTR]

As silly as that sounds, it's apparently not known by all the MDs out there.

On four separate occasions in the last few yrs I've either participated in or know of Regional/State or higher level matches that did not recognize F-TR when it came time to hand out the awards. Folks that is a real disheartening feeling walking away from the awards ceremony with nothing when you have shot well enough to win, and the score cards show it.

Twice in the last 3 or 4 yrs a regional that I used to shoot has failed to have anything for F-TR. I'm pretty certain that it's because the MD is a sling shooter and doesn't think to differentiate between F-TR and F-Open on the paperwork and the NRA just sends F-Open medallions and doesn't ask, and nobody notices till they line then up to hand them out. (A few yrs ago at that match there were about 18 F-TR shooters from out of state, none have been back).

Two yrs ago at a national level event there were no awards for F-TR. In his defense, The MD did mail plaques out a yr later, (though not one for the grand agg) but it was a long 2 day drive home with nothing to show for winning.

Last weekend I shot a mid range state match. I probably shot the best mid range scores I've ever shot. Good enough to best 6 out of 8 HM Open rifles, and tied the one in second on score, I think 2 points behind 1st. Nothing. The only recognition was for F class (I did get recognized as 3rd HM), no mention of F-TR.

What is a pisser about this one is that there was a new F-TR shooter who shot lights out, he finished 4 points behind me. He should have been second F-TR, and he got nada. (There were 11 F-TR shooters)

The point is... MDs, if there are 5 or more F-TR shooters we should get a class. We are not in the same group with F-Open. Make sure you do the paperwork so that there is an F-TR class.


[You can call me a whiner. I've got thick skin]

 

[lawman29]

All of the matches in Montana and Wyoming give separate awards for FTR and Open...

 

[Dos XX]

That's what you get for being a degenerate F/TR shooter.

 

[XTR]

All of the matches in Montana and Wyoming give separate awards for FTR and Open...

I realize that most do, and I've been combined with Open in the results when there were less than 5 TR shooters, I get that, it's the rules. Maybe I'm just unlucky and go to matches that don't break TR out.

 

[randy x]

I realize that most do, and I've been combined with Open in the results when there were less than 5 TR shooters, I get that, it's the rules. Maybe I'm just unlucky and go to matches that don't break TR out.

Good shooting Wade.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Would someone please direct me to where it is in the rules? I've been unable to find the 5 for a class award..

 

[XTR]

Would someone please direct me to where it is in the rules? I've been unable to find the 5 for a class award..

I can't find it now. I think that the wording was in the rules in yrs past, may have been removed. If you read the rules the words making it pretty clear that the awards are responsibility of the sponsor. It's probably one of those things that should be in the bulletins.

6. Awards—
All awards are furnished by the sponsor. The minimum award
schedule must include only the Tournament Winner, that person/team
firing the highest score regardless of classification or category. The method, time and place of issuance of awards is at the option of the sponsor with due notice to the competitors in the tournament program.

19.8.1 Combining of Classes -
When there are insufficient entries in any class to warrant an award in that class according to the match program conditions, the individual or team concerned may be moved by the Tournament Match Director to a higher class provided this change is made prior to the individual or team concerned having commenced firing in a tournament. [my emphasis]

 

[morpheus]

Nice humblebrag thread, Wade. Sometimes the only way to really fix something is to do it yourself. Maybe you should volunteer to run a match or two and you can teach others how to do it correctly (and I do agree with your definition). You have shot enough matches now, especially on the national level, that you would certainly know how to do it better than most! Why not volunteer to serve as match director or at least help out next year at the same match you are complaining about instead of just complaining?

Being the complainer is easy, but is often ultimately fruitless. Actually stepping up and contributing to improve something you care about is where the real rewards come in, and not just for yourself, but for others as well.

 

[XTR]

Someday I may be in a position to be able to commit to run matches. When you stopped running the mid range back in 2012 or 13 and floated to idea to me to run it I actually started some conversations at Raton with some national level vendors to sponsor it if it moved to Oak Ridge. When MSM kept it that ended. I imagined that I could have handled one match.

but...

I've said in the past that I could not volunteer to run matches because there was no guarantee that I'd be there to meet that obligation. My job and family commitments have the real probability of dictating my location and schedule beyond my control. (I only shot 3 matches in 2016 after averaging about 11 a yr since 2011)

I now live in New Hampshire, (since 3rd qtr last yr) two of the examples above are now about are 20 to 30 hours drive for me. The one this past weekend is at a club that I don't belong to in another state, and my job still makes travel demands on me that make it impossible for me to make a solid commitment (I'm posting from a motel in CT right now). If it weren't for that I'd have been running mid-range matches and promoting F class in Oak Ridge for the last 4 or 5 yrs.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

As silly as that sounds, it's apparently not known by all the MDs out there.

On four separate occasions in the last few yrs I've either participated in or know of Regional/State or higher level matches that did not recognize F-TR when it came time to hand out the awards. Folks that is a real disheartening feeling walking away from the awards ceremony with nothing when you have shot well enough to win, and the score cards show it.

Twice in the last 3 or 4 yrs a regional that I used to shoot has failed to have anything for F-TR. I'm pretty certain that it's because the MD is a sling shooter and doesn't think to differentiate between F-TR and F-Open on the paperwork and the NRA just sends F-Open medallions and doesn't ask, and nobody notices till they line then up to hand them out. (A few yrs ago at that match there were about 18 F-TR shooters from out of state, none have been back).

Two yrs ago at a national level event there were no awards for F-TR. In his defense, The MD did mail plaques out a yr later, (though not one for the grand agg) but it was a long 2 day drive home with nothing to show for winning.

Last weekend I shot a mid range state match. I probably shot the best mid range scores I've ever shot. Good enough to best 6 out of 8 HM Open rifles, and tied the one in second on score, I think 2 points behind 1st. Nothing. The only recognition was for F class (I did get recognized as 3rd HM), no mention of F-TR.

What is a pisser about this one is that there was a new F-TR shooter who shot lights out, he finished 4 points behind me. He should have been second F-TR, and he got nada. (There were 11 F-TR shooters)

The point is... MDs, if there are 5 or more F-TR shooters we should get a class. We are not in the same group with F-Open. Make sure you do the paperwork so that there is an F-TR class.


[You can call me a whiner. I've got thick skin]

I agree completely. F-TR should be awarded separately from F-Open. More and more match directors are coming around. Gentle persuasion seems to be working. Keep beating the drum.

Most MDs do what they write in the tournament program, so if F-Open is not distinct from F-TR in the program, I let all my buddies know before we travel. We still maintain "bragging rights" for the F-TR winners even if there is not an award.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Oregon does , but the 5 in a class rule could do a combine .
When sending a match schedule to the NRA for approval the Match Director can write that in the Bulletin ( as above ) Fan222

 

[saunaking]

Another option is to contact the MD (especially if they come from the sling shooting side) and ask if they are differentiating between open and ftr. One of the clubs we shoot at for either the regional or state MR every year is run by a sling shooter that did not know about the differences when he was first getting awards for the event. It was a matter of having a civil conversation about what he needed to make sure was there based on the number of people showed up for each discipline.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Another option is to contact the MD (especially if they come from the sling shooting side) and ask if they are differentiating between open and ftr. One of the clubs we shoot at for either the regional or state MR every year is run by a sling shooter that did not know about the differences when he was first getting awards for the event. It was a matter of having a civil conversation about what he needed to make sure was there based on the number of people showed up for each discipline.

An approach I've taken is just to volunteer (to the Match Director) to be the guy to get the awards for F-Class. If you have one set of awards engraved "F-Open" and another set engraved "F-TR" the MD will be inclined to hand them all out.

 

[XTR]

Another option is to contact the MD (especially if they come from the sling shooting side) and ask if they are differentiating between open and ftr. One of the clubs we shoot at for either the regional or state MR every year is run by a sling shooter that did not know about the differences when he was first getting awards for the event. It was a matter of having a civil conversation about what he needed to make sure was there based on the number of people showed up for each discipline.

I did have a very civil conversation with the MD after the match last weekend. He commented that he had never shot F class and so it hadn't occured to him and it was a valid point and that the club did have a lot of F-TR shooters. It was a great match, and I plan to shoot there again.

I really think in most all cases it's just a matter of someone from one HP dicipline not fully understanding that F class really is two diciplines, much like Service Rifle compared to pretty much all other sling shooting.

 

[memilanuk]

Glad to hear you have someone willing to listen.

I've had to deal with (for years) a local match director that was an old-school sling shooter (i.e. didn't approve of F-class in general as anything other than a bone to be thrown to those physically unable to shoot sling) and who refused to do anything to accommodate us. Continuous little B.S. things like "Oh, we couldn't find any LR-F centers, so you will just have to either shoot on MR-1 centers or the regular LR centers... either way, we can't turn in your scores"... after which I'd go dig thru their shelves and find a stack of LR-FCs. Or perpetuating some serious scoring errors in the form of 'everything on an F-class target is moved in one ring from the LR target'... and since there isn't any '5' on an LR target, any hit on paper on an F-class target was still scored as a 'miss' unless the shooter knew better and was willing to argue the issue.

The last little gouge he did was a year or two ago at the state LR match... once again, he did the awards by class first, and category last. So '1st Expert' was an F-Open shooter running a .284... and took home about 4-5x the award $$$ that the highest placing F/TR shooter (because, shocker, he won 1st Expert on every - single - match)... which was awarded as 'High F/TR', kinda like 'High Senior' or 'High Woman', instead of 'MW F/TR' or even just '1st F/TR'. Oh, and the F-class shooters had been randomly squadded across all three relays - or more precisely, squadded by *class*, with no regard to equipment category or actual seed squadding - so the top three F/TR shooters ended up on, you guessed it, three different relays. And this was an event where the number of *F/TR* shooters alone outnumbered the sling entries...

I held my tongue until I got home and had an opportunity to cool down a bit. Then I explained my point of view, and my experience with numerous other events / ranges. Since then, no issues. Then again, to my knowledge, that was the last event that person had a hand in. The newer MD is a lot more even-minded, and more responsive to how the shooters would like things done.

For the most part, MDs around here have seen the writing on the wall with the number of entries, and have adjusted things accordingly. But sometimes the only thing you can do is look at the crusty old farts and think "sooner or later I'm gonna win, even it just comes down to outlasting ya!"

 

[saunaking]

It seems that we have had much better communication with ranges where there is not a lot of f-class shooters, and matches are mainly run by sling shooters once we pitched in and started helping at some of the matches and attending planning meetings for the state organization. It's like most things in life, once someone else gets to know you it is a lot easier for them to "want" to understand your needs.

 

[memilanuk]

9 times out of 10, I'd say you're absolutely correct. Getting some of the newer F-class shooters to be active participants or 'owners' of the whole process - show up early, help with targets, etc. etc. etc. went a long ways towards acceptance and integration. But in the case of the individual mentioned above, all that (and much more) was done; I even specifically offered to show up and run a separate match (on paper) so he wouldn't have to deal with the F-class end of things. All offers were refused, assurances were made... and the same crap happened over and over and over... said individual was sufficiently entrenched that evicting him wasn't feasible. Time and old age took care of the problem...

 

[Jay Christopherson]

9 times out of 10, I'd say you're absolutely correct. Getting some of the newer F-class shooters to be active participants or 'owners' of the whole process - show up early, help with targets, etc. etc. etc. went a long ways towards acceptance and integration. But in the case of the individual mentioned above, all that (and much more) was done; I even specifically offered to show up and run a separate match (on paper) so he wouldn't have to deal with the F-class end of things. All offers were refused, assurances were made... and the same crap happened over and over and over... said individual was sufficiently entrenched that evicting him wasn't feasible. Time and old age took care of the problem...

Yeah, it was "fun" shooting important matches where shooters shot the same relay (and target) each day, regardless of position because re-squadding the F-Class shooters was apparently not worth his effort. On a range where relay position can, and does, make a huge difference to the outcome of a match. The matches this year were a whole different story, I thought the new MD did an outstanding job of re-squadding and keeping things as fair as possible.

 

[XTR]

.... he did the awards by class first, and category last. ...which was awarded as 'High F/TR', kinda like 'High Senior' or 'High Woman', instead of 'MW F/TR' or even just '1st F/TR'. Oh, and the F-class shooters had been randomly squadded across all three relays - or more precisely, squadded by *class*, with no regard to equipment category or actual seed squadding - so the top three F/TR shooters ended up on, you guessed it, three different relays. And this was an event where the number of *F/TR* shooters alone outnumbered the sling entries...

That is almost exactly the scenario from last week, except there were no F-TR awards.

 

[ShootDots]

Nice humblebrag thread, Wade. Sometimes the only way to really fix something is to do it yourself. Maybe you should volunteer to run a match or two and you can teach others how to do it correctly (and I do agree with your definition). You have shot enough matches now, especially on the national level, that you would certainly know how to do it better than most! Why not volunteer to serve as match director or at least help out next year at the same match you are complaining about instead of just complaining?

Being the complainer is easy, but is often ultimately fruitless. Actually stepping up and contributing to improve something you care about is where the real rewards come in, and not just for yourself, but for others as well.

Jim, pointing out a "problem" that needs to be fixed is not complaining. I believe XTR was simply bringing a fact to light so that any potential problem(s) brought by an ill-informed Match Director might be rectified prior to the next event. Sling, F-T/R and F-Open are NOT "Classifications" like Expert or High Master etc.. they are categories. Categories should all be recognized>>>period. If they are not, due to lack of knowledge by a M/D, is the fault of the M/D, not the person pointing out the problem. Besides, he did it very diplomatically and blamed nobody in particular. He merely brought up a shortfall that needs to be addressed.