Project S-Match (from the mid 1800’s until now are we all just expecting way too much from our beloved 22 Long Rifle)
- Thread starter High Noon
- Start date
PNW Skipper
Silver $$ Contributor
Actually Nielson's test data DID show concentricity to strongly affect group size. The problem is the data was collected in an indoor test tunnel, with a 22" long, 2" diameter test barrel, held in a 250# machine vice, bolted to the floor.
Figure 4: Bullet Concentricity Shooting Tests*, H-S Precision, Machine Vise, 2004
==== 20 round Group Diameters in inches ====
And those results are at 50 yds. In Dewar or mini Palma at 100 yds, or beyond the difference is more impressive.
In application to real shooting... I agree, the concentricity doesn't seem to make a difference since the conditions in which the improvement can be realised are so different from competition. But IF it could, that might be worth investigating.
Engraving length has a effect on concentricity. I'd like to know the chamber that was used on test rifle. I'd guess by the gain, little to no engraving.
Todd
Todd
Last edited:
PNW Skipper
Silver $$ Contributor
Todd,
I don't see that info for the Nielsen test. The photo of the Tirrell gun in the OP says Cole#2 tight chamber with 1degree throat (leade?) for that rifle.
Phil
My education continues .... thanks.
When we split 22 LR ammo issues to pieces.We have now about 20 feet/s or + V3 speed spread in good lot of ammo.
Most of it comes from primer mass force change.Smaller parts are coming from wax,bullet outdraw force,powder location in case,bullet lenght or thickness changes, etc.
Mr Seppo Hämäläinen was the first man who got 6 PPC rifle here in our country end of 70s and his team build me second.
Seppo said me about load developing."Change only 1 thing at the time" or you never know what was the key"
I have unloaded plenty of 22 LR ammo brands,took powder off,used case in sizing die and used always same Lapua bullet.
Then test from short barrel to chrono without powder.My other way with weak primer mass force is to shoot to long barrel that bullets are not coming out from barrel.
I measure how deep bullets are going to barrel and how much deep is changing.
Vihtavuori made primed cases to Lapua ammo when 22 LR ammo was made here in Finland.I interviewed retired employers and it was good method but dangerous one.
When someone likes to make "ultimate 22 LR ammo" this priming is biggest issue and must resolve.
About slower powders I can write more later.22 LR ammo was in the beginning developed to black powder (full case).With slower powders you get other issue what is more burnless powder.
Lonely 22 LR ammo loader, Timo
Most of it comes from primer mass force change.Smaller parts are coming from wax,bullet outdraw force,powder location in case,bullet lenght or thickness changes, etc.
Mr Seppo Hämäläinen was the first man who got 6 PPC rifle here in our country end of 70s and his team build me second.
Seppo said me about load developing."Change only 1 thing at the time" or you never know what was the key"
I have unloaded plenty of 22 LR ammo brands,took powder off,used case in sizing die and used always same Lapua bullet.
Then test from short barrel to chrono without powder.My other way with weak primer mass force is to shoot to long barrel that bullets are not coming out from barrel.
I measure how deep bullets are going to barrel and how much deep is changing.
Vihtavuori made primed cases to Lapua ammo when 22 LR ammo was made here in Finland.I interviewed retired employers and it was good method but dangerous one.
When someone likes to make "ultimate 22 LR ammo" this priming is biggest issue and must resolve.
About slower powders I can write more later.22 LR ammo was in the beginning developed to black powder (full case).With slower powders you get other issue what is more burnless powder.
Lonely 22 LR ammo loader, Timo
Hi Todd,
I've known of Frank's work for well over 20 years and although I've never met or spoke to him, I have visited with several mutual friends of his over those years. I even saw one of his rifles being shot by an acquaintance of mine at the 2018 ARA Nationals in St Louis. Pics below.
Anyway, is there any possible way to get a copy of the article above? I've heard of the article numerous times over the years and have seen excerpts from it, but never read it in its entirety and would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Landy
Attachments
High Noon
Silver $$ Contributor
Bro Timo,
Thanks for engaging in this tread and thanks even more for all your love, hard work and passion for the 22 match rimfire! We are all indebted to you for all your hard work over the years. I think almost everyone here has the same goal to simply make the match rimfire consistency accurate and available to everyone. I guess the question is have we really reached the accuracy potential of the of the original design ( or should we go backwards to the superb Russian design) or do we actually design a brand new 22 S-Match from the ground up. So if you could design a totally brand new match rimfire what would it look like?
Again thanks from all of us!
Todd
Thanks for engaging in this tread and thanks even more for all your love, hard work and passion for the 22 match rimfire! We are all indebted to you for all your hard work over the years. I think almost everyone here has the same goal to simply make the match rimfire consistency accurate and available to everyone. I guess the question is have we really reached the accuracy potential of the of the original design ( or should we go backwards to the superb Russian design) or do we actually design a brand new 22 S-Match from the ground up. So if you could design a totally brand new match rimfire what would it look like?
Again thanks from all of us!
Todd
High Noon
Silver $$ Contributor
Landy,
That is a very interesting rifle! What a really cool design. Frank was one busy guy on his ultimate accuracy journey! Is it made to shoot as an unlimited rail style rest and possibly locked in place to shoot normally. Since you took the time to share this with us I’d like to mail a copy of Franks article to you. Please PM your mailing address. Thanks!
Todd
That is a very interesting rifle! What a really cool design. Frank was one busy guy on his ultimate accuracy journey! Is it made to shoot as an unlimited rail style rest and possibly locked in place to shoot normally. Since you took the time to share this with us I’d like to mail a copy of Franks article to you. Please PM your mailing address. Thanks!
Todd
Todd,
Thank you very much!
I've been on the same path as Frank for almost 40 years now.
I'll send you a PM tomorrow and make another comment here at that time.
Landy
Devil is sitting in so small details and as we know on ammo batch tests manytimes others shit is others gold and viceversa.
This is fantasy and dream,but I think we need smaller custom made 22 LR ammo makers who makes killer ammo to each RF individual.
Sovjet Unions Olimp R was very near this there in Klimovsk on 80s.Governments money on background and they dont need to take care is ammo making giving profit or not.
Mr Tomi Korpi and I have made years presentations to Lapua of our thoughts ways to go to "ultimate 22 LR ammo" and we can see that only 1 thing of those was possible to get to mass production.
This made little better mouse trap.
Tomi and I have also try push that they make brand what is made to only BR & position shooters who dont use magazine.I am not very hopeful with this.BR shooting is too small segment to mass produser.
Because we have so many different chambers,leade,barrels,barrels riflings and one need from 22 LR ammo makers is to give lots where you know bullets thickness.
0,2236/0,2240/0,2244/0,2248.
Someone said that are we changing ammo to barrel or barrel to ammo....
BR, Timo
Todd,
Any chance the article could be placed somewhere for broader access? I’m sure there a quite a few folks that would like to read it.
Tony
High Noon
Silver $$ Contributor
Bro Timo,
“I think we need smaller custom made 22 LR ammo makers who makes killer ammo to each RF individual.” Bro Timo
I totally agree. Think all the way back I’m talking the 50’s and 60’s in the centerfire benchrest game it didn’t take the precision shooters long to realize the big companies couldn’t offer the level of precision components needed to advance accuracy. Legendary bullet die makers invented the expand up principle and the designs were constantly improved upon to this day. Then the accuracy gunsmiths started building precision rifles and then the custom action makers like Stolle, Shilen, Hall and others to up the accuracy level even more. Let this sink in for a moment. Today it’s the small precision custom action makers like Stiiler and Turbo, the small precision barrel makers like Hart, Douglas, Muller, Shilen and others that make this rimfire sport rock! It’s not the big companies that really don’t see enough market to justify making these products so why aren’t we getting the match ammo made in small companies?
I’d love to see Eley, Lapua and RWS add a totally new custom department to advance rimfire match ammo however I really think it’s time we also look at small companies to specialize in the finest ammo on the planet. And let me say I really don’t care where these companies are located but with the wax and lead restrictions looming dark on the EU horizon we better be making the match ammo in the USA too! The clock is ticking….
Todd
“I think we need smaller custom made 22 LR ammo makers who makes killer ammo to each RF individual.” Bro Timo
I totally agree. Think all the way back I’m talking the 50’s and 60’s in the centerfire benchrest game it didn’t take the precision shooters long to realize the big companies couldn’t offer the level of precision components needed to advance accuracy. Legendary bullet die makers invented the expand up principle and the designs were constantly improved upon to this day. Then the accuracy gunsmiths started building precision rifles and then the custom action makers like Stolle, Shilen, Hall and others to up the accuracy level even more. Let this sink in for a moment. Today it’s the small precision custom action makers like Stiiler and Turbo, the small precision barrel makers like Hart, Douglas, Muller, Shilen and others that make this rimfire sport rock! It’s not the big companies that really don’t see enough market to justify making these products so why aren’t we getting the match ammo made in small companies?
I’d love to see Eley, Lapua and RWS add a totally new custom department to advance rimfire match ammo however I really think it’s time we also look at small companies to specialize in the finest ammo on the planet. And let me say I really don’t care where these companies are located but with the wax and lead restrictions looming dark on the EU horizon we better be making the match ammo in the USA too! The clock is ticking….
Todd
PM sent.
I’m not positive, but I think you’re correct about Frank building it to be used with an Unlimited One-Piece rest system. With enough surface area in the front mount tensioning and a higher than average weight for a typical One-Piece rest, it can be locked down and shouldn’t have much of an affect relative to the linear recoil system of Frank’s rifle.
In hindsight, I wish I’d spent more time visiting with my buddy and getting what details he knew.
Also, since you’ve mentioned rail-guns, I thought I’d show you one of the two I have. This is my Jay Young rail and it’s interchangeable in use for either a barrel block mount or the action block mount as shown in the pic.
My very good friend Jerry Stiller fabricated the action mount on one of my many trips down to his shop.
Landy
Attachments
linekin
Gold $$ Contributor
[
Weather been shitty out there John? LOL
What we have now? We got Lapua compete or race of 22 LR ammo accuracy against other brands and they have gone further as we can see.
22 LR ammo accuracy and target sizes are now pretty good in balance.
We can joke that do we need smaller targets then IF with "ultimate 22LR ammo" people are shooting on the top 750/75 X or 1500/150 X or 15000 and many competitors shooting "full".
Ps.My friend gave his 6 BR rifle to "tuning" to me and I have issues to get it "perfect". I called him and he said in the phone that maybe then only way is change bigger target-
.At last I found issue from rifle and didnt need to take bigger targets.
Also if we like to lift up shooters part then we can shoot with 22 LR to 100 meter.Here we have different names on the top when shooting to 100 meter compared to 50 meter.
BR, Timo
Last edited:
yes, that is a viable idea, if too many are cleaning the target at 50 yards or fifty meters.. don't change the size of the target.. change the distance that target is shot at.. that alone will make that target smaller. It is said in highpower that the largest target you'll ever shoot is at 800 yards.What we have now? We got Lapua compete or race of 22 LR ammo accuracy against other brands and they have gone further as we can see.
22 LR ammo accuracy and target sizes are now pretty good in balance.
We can joke that do we need smaller targets then IF with "ultimate 22LR ammo" people are shooting on the top 750/75 X or 1500/150 X or 15000 and many competitors shooting "full".
Ps.My friend gave his 6 BR rifle to "tuning" to me and I have issues to get it "perfect". I called him and he said in the phone that maybe then only way is change bigger target-
At last I found issue from rifle and didnt need to take bigger targets.
Also if we like to lift up shooters part then we can shoot with 22 LR to 100 meter.Here we have different names on the top when shooting to 100 meter compared to 50 meter.
BR, Timo
Didn't Lones Wigger approach them all about 30 years ago in his quest for rimfire accuracy. Did he pass his notes along to someone on this subject?
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.